Busted and on tilt – how to proceed? (LP, story) [Archive]

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10-17-2005, 10:44 AM

Hello, community!

Last night, I was busted off my complete stack at Party. I’m completely on tilt and don’t know, how to proceed best. But let me first tell you, how it came so far.

I started playing poker three month ago after watching a Party tournament on TV. I was immediately fascinated by the game, started on Party with play money and was successful. After entering the real tables, tournaments as well as ring games, of course, I began to lose. So I bought SSHE, entered also some other pokerroom, and improved my play. I was still not good enough, but managed to keep my total downswing no lower than 700$, after initial charges of 500$ to Party and 500$ to this other pokerroom.
After rereading SSHE and understanding the concepts better, I won almost all my money back (mainly on 0.5/1 or 1/2). Yet there was a gap of 80$ and I had only two days, until I would see an old friend again, whom I told, that I was playing poker and who had asked me, whether I’m successful (which he could not believe). So, of course, I wanted to tell him, that I’m a winning player, and for this, I had to come to the winner zone. However, I had a small downswing and there were 120$ one day before our meeting. So I tried a shot at 5$/10$ to close this gap. And that’s where all started…

I was not very lucky, but made no too big mistakes, too, so after a downswing of 200$, I managed to break even again. But then, the next downswing of 200$ came. I came back with a flush to only -100$, when I again was in a hand, where the turn card brought me 17 outs against my opponents overpair. So I even betted the turn, which would, by winning this hand, have resulted at least in ending up even this night. But the river was a blank, and I was cruelly down. The next day, I didn’t even mention to my friend, that I still play poker.

I did not play much better the next days, and continued to lose. I hate to play against loose opponents, because I also become too loose then.
On the morning of my final day, I played on a table against some Lucky Luke, who played very loose, moderately aggressive, but indeed very lucky. I remember a hand, where he had an open ended straight draw against my TPTK. He had eight outs, but five of these outs would have given me better hand (either a higher straight or a flush). He managed to river one of the remaining three.
One hour later, these two hands came up between him and me and brought me completely on tilt.

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em (10 handed) link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
3 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, Lucky Luke in SB calls with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 1 folds.

Flop: (5.00 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

River: (5.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB.

I could not believe, that he had rivered a straight with nothing on the flop.
I was angry, but I had only seconds to feel this anger, because exactly the next hand, I caught AK again. This time, I would follow the same simple strategy: If heads up with Lucky Luke, just bet, no matter the action. He cannot always win.

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em (9 handed) link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, Lucky Luke on the Button calls with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2 folds.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

River: (5.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
My AK still had remained unimproved, so what to do? I decided to bet for two reasons: First, my opponent hadn’t shown much strength so far and I didn’t want to let him show me a cheap showdown with nothing. Second, if I would have checked now, he would have bet with any two cards. To see, whether it was a bluff or whether my Ace high was still good enough, I would have to call anyway. So…
Hero bets, Button calls.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB.
He had again managed to river the miracle 8 with his dominated Ace!

I left the table immediately. No, I even run away, and walked around in the sun for the rest of the day.

I resumed playing again in the evening, but my play was really bad (preflop and postflop), and this was my final hand. (Consider, that I’m almost all-in, so that’s the reason for my flop play.)

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em (10 handed) link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, 3 folds, Hero calls, 1 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6.00 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, Hero calls, CO raises, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG 3-bets, Hero calls, CO caps, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.00 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero is all-in ($1.64), CO bets, UTG calls.

River: (11.41 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players, 1 all-in)
UTG bets, CO raises, UTG 3-bets, CO caps, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 19.41 BB.
Solution:
CO shows T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif a straight, ten to ace.
UTG shows A/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif a full house, Jacks full of aces.
Hero doesn't show 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif a flush, king high.

What a shame! I even have to be lucky, to have been all-in, otherwise I would have lost even more…

So, now my questions:
• I managed to get busted in a hand which is almost the same I posted some weeks ago (Too optimistic?). Again, I for sure would not have folded on the river. Don’t I learn anything from my mistakes?
• Can I win in the long run, if my play becomes so much worse, when I’m on tilt?
• Is it better, to take a small break or, as professional sportsman after an accident do, try to concentrate, tighten up and get back to the ring as soon as possible?
• Shall I first improve my play, for instance by reading more books?
• Or shall I try some different games, like tournaments? I found out, that, when I always have to look at my stack, my game is much more concentrated.

If I start again, I will not fill up my Party account again, but I will go with some rakeback program. Do you have any tips for this?

Answers to all questions welcome!

krimson

10-17-2005, 10:54 AM

Play micro-limits and post in the micro-limit forum. You have a LOT to learn still and really should not be touching 2/4+ games. Play 0.5/1 and take advantage of bonuses on various sites to help slow the bleed while you become a winning player.

crunchy1

10-17-2005, 11:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
...after initial charges of 500$ to Party and 500$ to this other pokerroom.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you funding your poker accounts from a credit card?

Barry

10-17-2005, 11:07 AM

Read more and learn to play better. Stick with lower stakes until your sure you can beat them, then move up.

If you can't beat lower limits, it's pretty dumb to try to make up your losses by playing in a higher game, especially just to be able to tell your buddy that your a winner.

Pog0

10-17-2005, 11:14 AM

Your river decision on hand 1 is between fold and call. You can't 3-bet that.

I check/call or check/fold the river in hand 2 depending on the opponent. You even explained the reasoning for this yourself... that he might bluff and you'd have to call anyway... well, considering the strength of your hand, he's probably more likely to bluff a worse one than to call a worse one.

Your desire to get "even" blinded you into entering dangerous situations (playing 5/10 without the proper funds or skills to make it anything but pure casino style gambling for you).

You must fix your leak of loosening up too much in loose games, and more importantly, fix your leak of leaving loose games!!

Bob T.

10-17-2005, 02:07 PM

Read more books. Read 'Zen and the art of Poker' by Larry Phillips.

Play within your bankroll. Just like waiting for the right situation to play a hand is a poker skill, waiting for the right situation to enter a game is also a poker skill. I've been a winning player for about 5 years, and I still have 100 BB downswings with some regularity. Playing 5-10 on a 90 big bet bankroll, is just about a guarantee that you will go broke. Especially if you don't have the skills to beat that game.

If you are playing microlimits or very low limits, you might be able to assume that a loose player is bad, but with your experience, loose players at the higher low limits, are probably better players than you are, because they have much better postflop skills. The first couple of times that you move up and take shots, you have to play a tighter game than usual to minimize the number of marginal situations that you are in.

Finally, when you do have a truly bad player on your right, as it appears lucky luke was, don't leave the game, unless you can't function. Wait for your hands, and value bet the hell out of him. Also remember that those guys are playing for flushes, straights, and two pair, so when they raise, they frequently have one of those hands. You can't be three betting them with one pair hands. Against a strong player, who might value bet one pair good kicker, you might consider threebetting TPTK, but you can't do it against loose non maniacs.

Finally and this is in caps and bold for a reason

YOU AREN'T GOING TO SUCCEED BY PLAYING FOR MONETARY GOALS. YOU WILL SUCCEED IF YOU TRY AND MAKE GOOD DECISIONS ON EVERY HAND. WORRY ABOUT THE PROCESS, NOT THE PRODUCT, AND THE PRODUCT WILL BE OKAY.

Dagger78

10-17-2005, 02:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
YOU AREN'T GOING TO SUCCEED BY PLAYING FOR MONETARY GOALS. YOU WILL SUCCEED IF YOU TRY AND MAKE GOOD DECISIONS ON EVERY HAND. WORRY ABOUT THE PROCESS, NOT THE PRODUCT, AND THE PRODUCT WILL BE OKAY.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is some of the best advice that can be given to new players. Everyone wants to win everytime they play but it's just not reasonable. A good solid player can play great poker and still lose, that's just the game. Just tell yourself that you're going to play hand right, and if you are making the right decisions, you'll win the the long run.

If you're prone to Tilt you NEED to be able to recognize it and stop playing, a good player prone to tilt can blow off all his winnings easily.

I'd also consider reading Killer Poker (Vorhaus), not for the hold'em advice but for the mental advice. He gives you good things to think able to avoid tilt and play right. Ingore his advice about image play, this does not work at small stakes online(for the most part).

pokernicus

10-17-2005, 08:18 PM

You made many fundamental technical mistakes that others have pointed out (e.g., three-betting the river on the first hand and even entering the pot on the second hand).

You also made a number of emotional mistakes like playing at limits that were too big for your bankroll, etc.

The kind of mistakes you made are all well known, and the kinds of things you read about in intro poker books. (You can probably even get most of that advice for free by scanning the posts and articles on 2+2).

Your major trouble seems to have started because you set an artificial goal for yourself: win X$ in Y amount of time. This goal was artificial because there's significant luck/variance in poker and there's no way you can realistically guarantee making any amount of money in a fixed amount of time in poker (even if you play perfectly, which you didn't). Sometimes the poker gods just don't comply.

One thing you should keep in mind is that the objective in poker is to make *correct decisions*. If you make correct decisions, you will, more often than not, win money. Sometimes you can make correct decisions and still lose money because you get unlucky. That's poker.

If you set artificial goals like the one you did, then you *are* going to make bad/loose decisions trying to get there. Sometimes those mistakes are going to be eggregious (e.g., playing at limits to high for your bankroll), and sometimes they'll be more subtle (e.g., three-betting the river with a four straight on the board that you have no part of). In any case, you will make mistakes.

I definitely don't mean to sound judgemental or critical, but just trying to impart some advice (which you ought to consider following, but that you are free to ignore).

Even the best players have gone broke -- quite possibly even by making the same kinds of mistakes you did -- so you're in good company. Count yourself lucky that you only blew a relatively small sum of money compared to what the top players have done in these situations. The only thing you can do is rebuild your bankroll, but just don't be in a big rush to do so.