OT: Thinking out of the box and about players and situations

[rockythecat99]

First off let me say that I am not expert only been playing for 8 months but I am a winning player. Second like all of you I read extensively before embarking on this thing we love called poker.

I use to be an ABC player until two months ago and the procedeed to win the 40k guaranteed in party. what happened you ask? Well one day during a sng it just clicked just like that. Although Harrington told me not to play certain hands with an M of X I did. To see just what would happen. I did I won. Harrington told me to stop bluffing after the continuation bet on the flop gets called but I bluffed again and again anyway. What happened? I won.

Now why did this happen? How could Harrington be wrong? Well see what happened to me and to most here as I read posts on this forum and others is that we read something use ICM to prove its validity and get stuck doing the same play over and over.

Poker is not an exact science. Poker is about creativity and situations. At its purest form poker is not about your cards anymore. Its about situations and reads. So you have 92o on the BB and the button raises for the 5th consecutive time. Fold right??? Not if you have a stack comparable to him. Raise him all in and watch him fold.

You have 43s utg and you raise to increase your Shania(those who don't know what I am talking about do a search). You get a late position caller. Q109 on board. What do you do? Easy check/fold right? Nope you call on the flop and take it away from him on the river because you read him correctly and saw his bets didn't make sense for the hand he was trying to represent.

People always wonder why is it that the same people always win. They must always get good cards right??? The truth is that winning players act on situations that are plus ev while the rest don't because they "read it in a book" or "calculated it to be wrong with some computer program"

Flame away.

[citanul]

I don't understand why you think you should be flamed.

Could it be because you made a pointless, valueless, meaningless post, that did nothing but state some obvious stuff, and not even in a way in which those obvious things were phrased well?

Yeah, it's probably because of that.

citanul

[Arnfinn Madsen]

No reason to be so harsh on him /images/graemlins/smile.gif. My take from reading, is that 90% of the posters/readers in a few of the other forums on 2+2 have not taken his points into consideration. This forum stands out as more creative and openminded, though.

[rockythecat99]

This was just in response to being basically called a donk for advocating. Pushing with any two when you know player x in low position is stealing ur BB. But of course the mod here is a pro and makes millions unlike the rest of us. sigh.

[zambonidrivr]

teach this approach to as many people as you can. GG!

[bigt439]

Not only are the correct things you say extremely obvious, you say some things that are very poor pieces of advice without the correct context. I'm not flaming you personally, I just don't want anyone listening to this and doing dumb things as a result. Your lets bluff someone till they fold idea looks to be rather missaplied.

[tigerite]

Also the way he goes on about not accepting what Harrington says and ignoring ICM, and yet goes on about accepting another theory Shania without question (and it's highly debateable it's any good at all below $215 SNGs, and not even very good there because, simply, you don't play enough hands to make a difference).

[MegaBet]

The plays you describe only really work against good players. Identify the good players and up the bluff factor. ABC poker works very well against bad players. So the title of this thread is correct, although it's not something that hasn't been discussed many times before.

[rockythecat99]

They work against all types of players if you read them right. Works in the 6s all the way to the 215s. I think you guys think that I am bluffing every single hand or that I am advocating that. I am not. I say if the situation arises. Also, maybe not this forum so much but in the MTT forum I see players stuck to their bible HOH without expanding their knowledge of the game. I read HOH and follow its principles too but I have expanded on them for myself. ICM again does not tell you what type of player you are playing against and if he is going to play one way against you and another against another player. Now let this thread die if you guys are just going to flame. If you disagree with me fine but no need to be rude about it.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
The plays you describe only really work against good players. Identify the good players and up the bluff factor. ABC poker works very well against bad players. So the title of this thread is correct, although it's not something that hasn't been discussed many times before.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's make more blanket statements that are highly dependant on game context!

Always push from MP1 if the BB has between 8 and 10 bb's!

[tigerite]

Look you act as if ICM and reads are mutually exclusive which is the complete opposite of the case. You use your read on someone to put him on a range, then you use ICM to see if you can call/push. I am not sure how you are saying 'ICM tells you this without knowing anything about the opponent', because it does not.

[mlagoo]

rockythecat vs stanzee for the huc ii championship

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
Look you act as if ICM and reads are mutually exclusive which is the complete opposite of the case. You use your read on someone to put him on a range, then you use ICM to see if you can call/push. I am not sure how you are saying 'ICM tells you this without knowing anything about the opponent', because it does not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let 'em go tigerite. We can't help them all.

[rockythecat99]

Ok first off do you have ICM when you play live??? No you don't. That is one thing maybe for you guys not so much if you live far awya from AC or LV but I live close to AC. And have made it my priority never to use those things because I won't have them at my disposal during live play. On a side not there is a juicy 50 dollar sng 500 dollar first prize at the taj in AC if anyone is interested. During live play obviously you can see the person but the betting patterns are the same live or online.

You guys are too dependent on your little gadgets and not enough on your own ability to read betting patterns or people. Do you think when a real pro plays he is thinking well my ICM calculations say this or that?? They probably have never even used this. If your ICM crashes then what are you crippled???

[Jbrochu]

Harrington is not advocating a cookie-cutter ABC approach to poker. If people are trying to follow his advice to the letter as if it's a recipe, they have missed the main objective of his book - which is to help players THINK about situations before they make their play.

I suspect Harrington would give you an atta-boy for recognizing situations and taking advantage of them despite the cards in your hand.

BTW - when you end your post "flame away" don't be surprised when you get flamed.

[rockythecat99]

[ QUOTE ]


BTW - when you end your post "flame away" don't be surprised when you get flamed.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yeah Ill make sure to leave that out next time /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[mlagoo]

are you serious?

the sngs at the taj start with 20xBB, and the blinds raise every 15 minutes (in LIVE play). this isn't exactly what I call juicy, no matter how bad the players are.

also, most people don't use ICM in the middle of a game. they take interesting situations, during their downtime, and run it through, to see what the most profitable action is, so they will know for next time. if you can't see that doing that is obviously helpful, then you're just not thinking it through.

although at this point, you seem like you don't want any help. hell, you won the 40k guaranteed -- you MUST be one of the greatest players on this forum. after all, no one without a ton of talent can win a poker tournament. good luck, and i'm sure we'd all feel honored to be the recipients of your next pearl of wisdom.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok first off do you have ICM when you play live???



[/ QUOTE ]

I don't use it when I play online either. It's for post-play studying.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think when a real pro plays he is thinking well my ICM calculations say this or that??


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Maybe not specifically referring to SNGPT. But yes.

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
And have made it my priority never to use those things because I won't have them at my disposal during live play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm, we don't have ICM at our disposal during on-line play either. It's used away from the tables as a means of working on your game...

[rockythecat99]

[ QUOTE ]
are you serious?

the sngs at the taj start with 20xBB, and the blinds raise every 15 minutes (in LIVE play). this isn't exactly what I call juicy, no matter how bad the players are.

also, most people don't use ICM in the middle of a game. they take interesting situations, during their downtime, and run it through, to see what the most profitable action is, so they will know for next time. if you can't see that doing that is obviously helpful, then you're just not thinking it through.

although at this point, you seem like you don't want any help. hell, you won the 40k guaranteed -- you MUST be one of the greatest players on this forum. after all, no one without a ton of talent can win a poker tournament. good luck, and i'm sure we'd all feel honored to be the recipients of your next pearl of wisdom.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off about the taj yes I am serious. Its profitable for me so I don't know aobut you. Second I have never proclaimed myself above any of you. I have said that I am a winning player which is true and I am sure most of you are too. I just said that everyone here just uses computer tools and books as the end all be all of poker when poker IS NOT AN EXACT SCIENCE. Every hand can be played differently with positive results. But i am done with this post because it seems like YOU don't want any help.

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]
Flame away.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Now let this thread die if you guys are just going to flame.

[/ QUOTE ]

Make up your mind! /images/graemlins/shocked.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

edit- didn't see the posts already pointing this out /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[Nicholasp27]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok first off do you have ICM when you play live??? No you don't. [I] have made it my priority never to use those things because I won't have them at my disposal during live play.

[/ QUOTE ]

um, sngpt is NOT meant to be used during a game

it is a LEARNING tool so u can learn when conditions dictate what cards are +$ev to push instead of fold...if u play sngs seriously, u really need to build those models in ur mind and build ur instinct or u'll be too aggressive or not aggressive enough


on the bubble, what matters most:

a) blind sizes
b) chip stacks
c) positioning (includes are u first in pot)
d) villian (calling ranges/pushing ranges)
e) your cards

Rocky what you have just said goes against everything the pros believe in

I won several tournaments last year and i had applied what you speak of here, man I'd be in the dole office now asking for a crisis loan. DUDE...........

[ QUOTE ]
On a side not there is a juicy 50 dollar sng 500 dollar first prize at the taj in AC if anyone is interested.

[/ QUOTE ]

No there is not. There is a crappy 50 dollar SNG at the Taj in AC because it is 50+15! or 30% rake...also winner take all.

[SCfuji]

[ QUOTE ]

rockythecat vs stanzee for the huc ii championship

[/ QUOTE ]

ahahahahahahaha. who will walk away with their shoelaces untied, unfit for their opponent to tie them???!?? find out saturday october, 22nd 2005. buy your tickets now now NOW!

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
are you serious?

the sngs at the taj start with 20xBB, and the blinds raise every 15 minutes (in LIVE play). this isn't exactly what I call juicy, no matter how bad the players are.

also, most people don't use ICM in the middle of a game. they take interesting situations, during their downtime, and run it through, to see what the most profitable action is, so they will know for next time. if you can't see that doing that is obviously helpful, then you're just not thinking it through.

although at this point, you seem like you don't want any help. hell, you won the 40k guaranteed -- you MUST be one of the greatest players on this forum. after all, no one without a ton of talent can win a poker tournament. good luck, and i'm sure we'd all feel honored to be the recipients of your next pearl of wisdom.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off about the taj yes I am serious. Its profitable for me so I don't know aobut you. Second I have never proclaimed myself above any of you. I have said that I am a winning player which is true and I am sure most of you are too. I just said that everyone here just uses computer tools and books as the end all be all of poker when poker IS NOT AN EXACT SCIENCE. Every hand can be played differently with positive results. But i am done with this post because it seems like YOU don't want any help.

[/ QUOTE ]

Though I have never played it, the Taj SNG format sounds like just about the worst format imaginable for making consistent profits...I dont care how you did over 10 or 20, but winner take all with a 33% rake is not my idea of a good time...nevermind the blind stack ratio to start...what a joke.

I don't think you really know WHY ICM is useful...so you shouldnt put it down...

As for the rest of your assertions, they are so obvious it seems clear that your ideas have only just now become apparent to you and you felt like sharing. Thats nice, but spare us the pomposity.

[introv]

I have a friend who is terrible at poker. Every week he loses money at our home game (I know this is the case because another friend has been tracking everyones results) against some extremely weak opposition. Also, having watched quite a few of his stt's I am fairly confident he's losing money playing on-line, and I'm absolutely sure he plays way too high for his ability.

However, he doesn't think he is terrible. In fact, he thinks he is bloody brilliant.

Last night I watched him place 2nd in a $25K GTD MTT. He actually should of won it, going into HU with a 4 to 1 chip lead, but through some terrible play he managed not to get lucky and blew the win.

Thing is, he doesn't even understand how lucky he was to get as far as he did. I watched him make some horrendous errors and get lucky. And I don't mean simply winning coin-flips or dominated hands (although he did win plenty of them).

He had a huge amount of hidden luck where his terrible play didn't get him into massive amounts of trouble (and when it did he sucked out). But he will not see that at all.

Don't ever discount the possibility that you may not be as good as you think you are and that the result you got from your big tourney may just have been a complete fluke.

Enjoy!

PS. Anyone that uses the term 'thinking outside the box' is a proper knob in my book.