A Question About Marginal Hands

[PokerProdigy]

I have heard and read many times that most of your profit in limit holdem comes from marginal hands. Intuitively this makes sense because the good and bad players wouldn't (usually) win or lose any more or less with the big hands like AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, etc... I used to always try to play a very tight preflop game in limit holdem (like the one in GSIH) and try to stay away from marginal hands. I am wondering if this is a bad idea, especially since I have read SSHE a few times along with many other good poker books, so I feel like I have an ok grip on the game and how to play marginal hands.

So my questions are:
1) Do you agree that most of the profit in limit holdem comes from marginal hands?
2) Do you agree that it is actually a bad preflop strategy in limit holdem to play too tightly preflop, because if you don't play enough marginal hands it will be difficult to make a profit?

[stoli]

The best thing you could do to better incorporate the marginal hands is to read about starting hands in SSHE. In that section you should be able to get a feel for when to incorporate marginal hands into your game, I.E. Suited connectors from middle or late position are going to go up in value if there is little pre-flop raising but lot's of limpers. Re-read that section and that should help. In a loose passive game it is costing you to not be playing these hands, in a tight-aggressive game there is nothing wrong with playing super tight.

[newhizzle]

this is interesting, i dont think that playing hands like 87s, A4s and 22 UTG is a good idea in all but the best games, but i think a lot of an experts profits come from marginal blind stealing situations, especially in tighter, tougher games

i think in easier games, ABC poker will do just fine, but once you get to the tougher games, you probably will have to throw in some extra hands and play them aggressively to have a real edge

i dont know how much value there is to adding marginal hands to your arsenal, but i think your main spots where they are going to help you are in blind stealing situations, this may be way off tho, id like to hear what others have to say

edit: i also think a lot of profit in tougher games comes from knowing when to isolate weaker opposition with marginal hands

[newhizzle]

[ QUOTE ]
The best thing you could do to better incorporate the marginal hands is to read about starting hands in SSHE. In that section you should be able to get a feel for when to incorporate marginal hands into your game, I.E. Suited connectors from middle or late position are going to go up in value if there is little pre-flop raising but lot's of limpers. Re-read that section and that should help. In a loose passive game it is costing you to not be playing these hands, in a tight-aggressive game there is nothing wrong with playing super tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree with this too, in looser games you should be playing more marginal hands in late positions after others have limped, but i think in tighter games you need to start getting aggressive when it is folded to you and when you have opportunites to isolate weaker opponents

but once again, id like to hear what others have to say because im not sure how accurate what im saying is

[BigEndian]

The true-ism is, all of your profit in hold'em comes from playing better than your opponents. As you move up in stakes and play tougher opponents, the profit comes from tougher situations and playing common hands with better lines given the opposition.

Tight play still wins. But there's a huge gap between playing tight and being a rock. And tight play is only part of the equation for seeing a profit.

Also, if you aren't careful, you can find yourself on the other side of tight and playing too many hands thinking you'll outplay your opponents post flop. That's a very dangerous spot.

Learning the balance of what hands to play and how as you move up in limits is part of the learning process of poker.

- Jim

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
I have heard and read many times that most of your profit in limit holdem comes from marginal hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
Could you please quote where you read this.

[ QUOTE ]
Intuitively this makes sense because the good and bad players wouldn't (usually) win or lose any more or less with the big hands like AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, etc...

[/ QUOTE ]
Huh?!? Good players win more and bad players win less (or lose) - this is what separates good players and bad players.

[ QUOTE ]
I used to always try to play a very tight preflop game in limit holdem (like the one in GSIH) and try to stay away from marginal hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
There's nothing wrong with playing tight preflop. Adding marginal hands, like limping small pairs, suited connectors and Axs in EP, is going to increase your winrate - but it will also increase your variance. Additionally, adding these types of hands is only going to increase your winrate if you play them well after the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
1) Do you agree that most of the profit in limit holdem comes from marginal hands?

[/ QUOTE ]
No. Most of the profit does not come from marginal hands. Most of the profit comes from the best starting hands. Marginal hands, when played well (i.e. by good players), add to their overall profit margin - but they certainly do not account for the majority of it.

[ QUOTE ]
2) Do you agree that it is actually a bad preflop strategy in limit holdem to play too tightly preflop, because if you don't play enough marginal hands it will be difficult to make a profit?

[/ QUOTE ]
Obviously, based on my answer to #1, the answer is again: No.

The truth is that your preflop strategy should be dictated by how well you play after the flop. Most beginning players should start with a tight, disciplined PF strategy. Then, as they progress in their knowledge of the game, they can begin to add marginal hands. Their increased knowledge and skill will allow them to make these hands profitable in the long run.

[brettbrettr]

Yes, given the right situation, marginal hands add to your earn. I don't have numbers for this, but I'd think that the majority of your money comes from premium hands, and the secon d-most bulk of it comes from value betting those hands.

[Barry]

I'm not really sure what you are trying to get at. First of all much of my total winnings and $$/hand comes from my big hands.

When you are talking about marginal hands, what are those hands and what is your position? There's a big difference in limping up front with something like Axs or 76s and overlimping in LP behind other limpers with those hands. It also depends upon the type of game as well. There are some games (LP) that I might play those hands and some others that I wouldn't even think more than a nanosecond before they hit the muck.

[jskills]

A large part of my profit comes from AA. Then from KK, QQ, etc. The best hands (not the marginal ones) typically yield the most profit consistently.

Do you have Pokertracker? If so, take a look for yourself and I bet you'll see something similar.

My thought is that most of the profit in limit games comes from premium hands. My strategy is to be win pots where I have an edge rather than to gamble in a lot of pots. The value of marginal hands does increase in situations where a number of players have folded.

[ QUOTE ]
I have heard and read many times that most of your profit in limit holdem comes from marginal hands. Intuitively this makes sense because the good and bad players wouldn't (usually) win or lose any more or less with the big hands like AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, etc... I used to always try to play a very tight preflop game in limit holdem (like the one in GSIH) and try to stay away from marginal hands. I am wondering if this is a bad idea, especially since I have read SSHE a few times along with many other good poker books, so I feel like I have an ok grip on the game and how to play marginal hands.

So my questions are:
1) Do you agree that most of the profit in limit holdem comes from marginal hands?
2) Do you agree that it is actually a bad preflop strategy in limit holdem to play too tightly preflop, because if you don't play enough marginal hands it will be difficult to make a profit?

[/ QUOTE ]

[W. Deranged]

I tend to disagree with this sentiment.

The fact is, I can't play 30 hands without seeing one of my opponents (whether a rock, a lag, or anything in between) badly misplay a premium hand. Players often lose tons of value by slowplaying As, fail to properly value bet obvious good hands like TPTK with AK, fail to protect vulnerable holdings like a JJ overpair, and so on.

One thing I've noticed, particularly about rocky players and players that think that tight play is all their is to poker, is that such players lose TONS of value on premium hands. This, in my opinion, is one of the major reasons why such players aren't the kinds of winners that they assume they should be because they play tight and try to avoid getting into trouble.

[adios]

I think that your point is that we all get Aces, Kings, Queens i.e. the premium hands as often as our poor playing opponents and that we win approximately the same amount of money with them. Probably not though as a good player just makes better decisions about raising, calling and folding so I think it's fair to say that a good player will show a higher profit with the premium hands than a poor player will. I think you're making a point that most players throw away the trash hands so good players don't necessarily gain any edge there. I realize there are live ones and there are really live ones though /images/graemlins/smile.gif. SSHE has a decent graph of how fast starting hands start to deteriorate in profitibility. Lots of hands go -EV fast. Sometimes those hands that are close i.e. marginal are worth playing because the situation is favorable for one reason or another and sometimes they're trash and should be thrown away. A good player is able to evaluate these situations accurately alot better than a poor player so the good player gains there.

After the flop, many boards get scary and many good starting hands turn "marginal" after the flop. Good players evaluate these situations much better than poor players and thus win more money to make a long story short. In my mind what you're saying is that when you try to stay away from marginal hands you try to stay away from situations where your hand after the flop is iffy ( Axs in early position when you get raised and you may or may not be dominated as one example) and thus you won't have to make as many difficult decisions after the flop. If I'm right in what you're stating then I think the answer is that reading hands accurately before and after the flop and taking the correct strategic line are what will swing the slightly unprofitable hands (in the aggregate given no developed skills in reading hands or thorough knowledge of sound strategy) into profitable ones. Hope this makes sense and is helpful.

[SeaEagle]

[ QUOTE ]
Probably not though as a good player just makes better decisions about raising, calling and folding so I think it's fair to say that a good player will show a higher profit with the premium hands than a poor player will.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. Most of the profit comes from playing good hands better post flop. If I were to take a stab at quantifying this, I'd say:

If a good post flop player w/ VPIP15% can make 2BB/100, then that same player might move up to 2.5BB/100 by playing 3-5% more hands.

But a weak/tight (read: poor post-flop) player who plays those same 15% of his hands will only break even, and will lose money if he plays 18-20% of his hands.

[BigBrother]

[ QUOTE ]

So my questions are:
1) Do you agree that most of the profit in limit holdem comes from marginal hands?
2) Do you agree that it is actually a bad preflop strategy in limit holdem to play too tightly preflop, because if you don't play enough marginal hands it will be difficult to make a profit?

[/ QUOTE ]

1) No way. Most of your profit comes from your premium hands. Period. A good player will win more with the premium hands than a bad player. The good player bets/raises for value when her hand is good, and finds the discipline to fold when it's obvious she is beat.

You are going to be playing your premium hands 100% of the time...but even AA is only 2 cards of 7. Reading the board, reading your opponents, and understanding the situation will make a huge difference. Your AK will miss the flop 2/3 of the time....how you play it from there will make a huge difference.

2) It depends. Playing tight preflop in a loose game, you can still win, but since you are not involved in many pots, the variance can get you in the short run. Still by playing tight your losses will be limited.

Once you have mastered your postflop play with premium hands, you can profitably add marginal hands...and playing more marginal hands will improve your earn on your premium hands because you will get more action if you are in more hands.

Loosening up a bit preflop CAN increase your earn rate, because you give yourself more opportunities to outplay your opponents. But you need to do it wisely, with the right types of hands in the right situations depending on the table texture. Also don't forget the more hands you play the more variance you will experience and the more you will see the effect of the rake.

[econ_tim]

A number of posters have already meantioned that given premium hands are more profitable than given marginal hands.

This is true, but it's not enough information to say which group of hands is more profitable. If we get premium hands 5% of the time and marginal hands 15% of the time (I'm just making these numbers up) then the average premium hand could be 3 times as profitable as the average marginal hands and both types of hands would account for an equal share of our profits.

I don't know what numbers to plug in, but I think the premium hands still account for most of the profit even after considering their reduced frequency.