Is my check on the flop reasonable? [Archive]

View Full Version : Is my check on the flop reasonable?

10-17-2005, 10:03 AM

Just sat down, no real reads. Table is generally loose.

Party Poker 1.00/2.00 Hold'em (9 handed) link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 raises, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 caps, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks.

Okay, so why not bet? Because I want to get the two callers out of there and face the pre-flop capper alone. After capping and then checking, a check-raise is possible but it won't drive out the others because of his position. I'd rather risk just letting a spade or high card come and fold to a bet or raise rather than have limpers chase us if we get in a raising war.

I figure that if a low card hits it may be checked to him and will bet, in which case I can raise and immediately find out where I stand against him.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB.

It worked, but was it a bad move? (Also, what range of hands do you put MP1 on?)

sean c

10-17-2005, 10:06 AM

Bet the flop giving infinite odds to the field blows. Your hand is vunerable and they may be correct in calling a flop bet but no reason to give them a freebie.

newhizzle

10-17-2005, 10:15 AM

i bet, i think MP1 has AK here a lot, and maybe occaisionally TT, but im more worried about protecting my hand then him having TT right now

Nick Royale

10-17-2005, 10:43 AM

Bet. Always.

hobbsmann

10-17-2005, 11:01 AM

you have to bet this flop every time. MP1 has exactly AK here and giving him infinite odds to draw to a higher pair is a disaster.

@bsolute_luck

10-17-2005, 11:36 AM

my question is what do you do if he c/r?

i've seen TT do this (i'm told not many people cap TT preflop, but anyways) as well as a flush draw or AA/KK.

soko

10-17-2005, 11:52 AM

Is my check on the flop reasonable?

Does it LOOK reasonable? You just gave anyone with a 4 a free card and a 4 hits on the turn

Common sense surrenders.

10-17-2005, 02:25 PM

I don't like the check on the flop here. The way that the betting went, I would have to figure your opponent for AK or possibly AQ. Therefore, I would not want to give him a free card to beat me.

[ QUOTE ]
Just sat down, no real reads. Table is generally loose.

Party Poker 1.00/2.00 Hold'em (9 handed) link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 raises, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 caps, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks.

Okay, so why not bet? Because I want to get the two callers out of there and face the pre-flop capper alone. After capping and then checking, a check-raise is possible but it won't drive out the others because of his position. I'd rather risk just letting a spade or high card come and fold to a bet or raise rather than have limpers chase us if we get in a raising war.

I figure that if a low card hits it may be checked to him and will bet, in which case I can raise and immediately find out where I stand against him.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB.

It worked, but was it a bad move? (Also, what range of hands do you put MP1 on?)

[/ QUOTE ]

felix83

10-17-2005, 04:08 PM

I see no problem 3-betting this. It still makes the other 2 players face 2 bets after that so it should drive out players that just called your one bet. Otherwise there are many cards that could burn you on the turn. You fortunately got a safe card here and played the rest well, but I think you have to take charge with the overpair.

W. Deranged

10-17-2005, 04:13 PM

A couple of things to think about:

1. For many weak players, MP1's flop check will simply represent having missed with AK or something like that. A very high percentage of the time you are ahead here.

2. Getting check-raised on the flop isn't so bad. In fact, waiting until the turn to raise a bet from villain may just mean you get three-bet on the turn by your villain's bigger overpair, and in that case you've simply just played into his/her hands, and done so at the same time you allow the other two opponents get free cards to beat you.

3. Just because the pot is big doesn't mean your opponents will always call. Some players are oblivious and pay no attention to pot size or any consideration like that. Go ahead and bet and give your opponents opportunities to make mistakes. Checking simply means they can never make mistakes.

sean c

10-17-2005, 04:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I see no problem 3-betting this. It still makes the other 2 players face 2 bets after that so it should drive out players that just called your one bet. Otherwise there are many cards that could burn you on the turn. You fortunately got a safe card here and played the rest well, but I think you have to take charge with the overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

If MP1 check/raises he is doing it with the intent of trapping the field for as many bets as possible which means your overpair is probably toast and anyone with a real draw will still have odds to call. If MP1 check/raises i am calling and re evaluating after i see the turn card.

W. Deranged

10-17-2005, 04:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I see no problem 3-betting this. It still makes the other 2 players face 2 bets after that so it should drive out players that just called your one bet. Otherwise there are many cards that could burn you on the turn. You fortunately got a safe card here and played the rest well, but I think you have to take charge with the overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

If MP1 check/raises he is doing it with the intent of trapping the field for as many bets as possible which means your overpair is probably toast and anyone with a real draw will still have odds to call. If MP1 check/raises i am calling and re evaluating after i see the turn card.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like three-betting the flop if we get check-raised. Sean is correct that a check-raise by villain here is totally for value and hence it's likely he has a very big hand like AA or KK. Three-betting is simply spewing at this point as it has only minimal protection value (the players that called one on the flop may likely call two back to them), and you are so likely to be behind.

I also like Sean's idea that we should wait for the value of the turn card. If any overcard flops, folding is easy on the turn and we've minimized our investment with a likely poor hand. If the turn card is an undercard I think we can then consider raising the turn for protection and folding to a raise/taking a free showdown, IF we determine our hand will win often enough to merit showing down for two bets (this is read dependent).

felix83

10-17-2005, 04:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]

If MP1 check/raises he is doing it with the intent of trapping the field for as many bets as possible which means your overpair is probably toast and anyone with a real draw will still have odds to call. If MP1 check/raises i am calling and re evaluating after i see the turn card.

[/ QUOTE ]

The wait until the turn certainly makes more sense to me now reading the replies, but could the arugment be made that if he is check-raising because we're way behind, it's better to find out now than get 3-bet on the turn with KK or something and lose more bets?

10-17-2005, 04:36 PM

I can't remember if there was an example like this in SSHE, but it seems like every couple of weeks someone posts a hand like this. Below is a link from an old Ed Miller post describing why we can wait for the turn when bet into, but we usually shouldn't when it is checked to us on the flop.

Ed Miller says don't wait for the turn when checked to (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3043403&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1)