Restealing Conditions

[Nicholasp27]

This thread is for thoughts on the conditions needed for resteals to be considered as a good move.

Blind sizes, chip stacks, number of players left, villian reads, etc...whatever u think is important to consider before going for a resteal

if u want, submit real or hypothetical hands to further illustrate it

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]

Blind sizes, chip stacks, number of players left, villian reads, etc...whatever u think is important to consider before going for a resteal

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All of the above, plus table image, plus your cards actually do matter a little.

[Nicholasp27]

what i mean is what should u look for

blind stacks matter, so what makeup of blind stacks is most ideal for a resteal and when do blind stacks dicate that it's a bad time to do a resteal


cards only matter if u are called...i wanna get to the meat of how to determine when conditions are ripe to resteal with low probability of being called...

[tigerite]

Cards matter though because you have to factor in how often he will fold, and as that's never going to be 100%, they do have to be good enough to stand up to his when he does call.. it also matters how close you are to going to the felt and the pot odds you are giving him to call (as most people go on that, because there's no way of working out ICM at the table, naturally)..

[Nicholasp27]

ok, cards matter
but we all know what cards have what odds, etc...

what i wanna get at is the other conditions


ie if he has 3x your stack, you have lower chance of restealing whereas if stacks are

5k/1k/1k/1k and u both have 1k, he may let u resteal more of the time...

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
ok, cards matter
but we all know what cards have what odds, etc...

what i wanna get at is the other conditions


ie if he has 3x your stack, you have lower chance of restealing whereas if stacks are

5k/1k/1k/1k and u both have 1k, he may let u resteal more of the time...

[/ QUOTE ]

Well this depends because many players erroneously only see pot odds, for instance, if he raises to 250 and the blinds are 50/100 and you re-push then it's 750 for him to call into a pot of about 1300.. even if he "shouldn't" call by ICM etc. So it also depends on the situation of the game. Generally having someone covered is the best time to do it, and not to a total donk, because the looser they are the worse it is, much like open pushing in fact.

[rockythecat99]

Cards don't matter. Situations matter. For example. I play the turbos at stars so stacks are bigger and there is more playability. But say party for example. If its the bubble and you know from previous hands that player x is a blind stealer when he raises your BB or SB and you have a really good idea that BB will fold you go all in. You must have a stack that is comparable to player x's stack so that even if he is chip lead you will make a big dent on him if he calls say 1/3-1/2 of his stack.

[tigerite]

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Cards don't matter. Situations matter.

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I'm sorry but this is not true, cards do matter, but they are probably the smallest part of the equation, however the stronger your holding, the less it matters if he calls.. you can't say they don't matter because it's total rubbish.

[rockythecat99]

Trust me they don't matter. Thats the thing with bluffs and restealing is a bluff, the situation matters the most. That is why people don't go far in tournaments because they say well I have Ax in the BB and this guy is raising on the button I am going to resteal because I have Ax. NO. This is clearly incorrect thinking because they wait to have "a hand" and don't think of the situation.

If you had 83o and you knew this guy was trying to steal your bb you can go all in with a positive expectation. Sure there will be a time when he calls and shows you AK or QQ. But this is a plus ev play. Stop thinking about cards so damn much.

Yesterday I bluffed a guy with 43o from utg on a Q109 board because I read the situation correctly not because of the hands I had. Obviously this is a very read specific play and I played solid the rest of the sng but you get my point. If and when you spot a plus ev situation your hand no longer matters its how you bet the hand that matters. I hope that helps.

[tigerite]

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If you had 83o and you knew this guy was trying to steal your bb you can go all in with a positive expectation. Sure there will be a time when he calls and shows you AK or QQ. But this is a plus ev play. Stop thinking about cards so damn much.

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Again, this is not true! Have you actually tried to work it out by ICM, based on how much he folds? When you push with a crap hand he has to fold a LOT more than if you do it with Ax. Unless you're talking about a fold of > 60%, then him calling hurts you much more when you have a really terrible hand. Trust me I have done the calculations and I know.

[rockythecat99]

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If you had 83o and you knew this guy was trying to steal your bb you can go all in with a positive expectation. Sure there will be a time when he calls and shows you AK or QQ. But this is a plus ev play. Stop thinking about cards so damn much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, this is not true! Have you actually tried to work it out by ICM, based on how much he folds? When you push with a crap hand he has to fold a LOT more than if you do it with Ax. Unless you're talking about a fold of > 60%, then him calling hurts you much more when you have a really terrible hand. Trust me I have done the calculations and I know.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok I think I am going to write a post about this on its own but I have to answer you here. Look stop thinking just because you made an ICM calculation you are right. The point of my response is not to say that in every single sng you play you go all in with 83o. If you do that then of course you are going to lose money.

I am saying that if the SITUATION warrants this move then you can do it with a positive EV. This is something ICM can't calculate. ICM calculates hands versus other hands that YOU THINK a player will call with. If I play you heads up lets say ICM will not help you one bit. Why?? because you don't know what I will call and when. For example I might call and all in from player x with Ace high but will not call player y with Ace high. Why?? Because of my read on each player.

YOu have to play the players and the situations thats something that ICM can't give you. That is the worst thing you can do as a poker player narrow your play because of percentages a computer program gives you.

[tigerite]

This is wrong on so many levels I'm not even going to begin. Think how you like..

[Nicholasp27]

cards matter only if u get called...everyone knows that if your attempt is unsuccesful, it's better to have a good hand than a bad hand

but i wanna get to the heart of the matter of when to resteal, not when to semi-resteal


if u want, u can give scenarios and say that factors x and y make this successful for top 50% of cards, or for any2 cards, or whatever

but i wanna get opinions on what factors one should take into account when deciding to resteal or not...cards is one, and we know how to do that...now, what other factors?


chip stacks? if so, what makeup? when the person u are restealing against has another even stack with him or there is an extreme shorty on table and it's 4-handed? do u have to have him covered in this case? just 2/3 his stack? etc...what factors should one consider when determining whether the conditions are favorable to resteal?

chip stacks
blind sizes
villian's tendencies (both card ranges and able to lay down vs calling station)
your table image
your cards
etc
etc

[bigt439]

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Trust me they don't matter.

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You are losing credibility at a ridiculously fast pace. Stop being so authoritative when you really don't know what you're talking about. Also if you are going to be this authoritative, try not to do it while making incredibly false statements.

[bones]

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chip stacks? if so, what makeup? when the person u are restealing against has another even stack with him or there is an extreme shorty on table and it's 4-handed?

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I wouldn't include bubble play in this discussion. In that case, it's almost exclusively about chip stacks and your particular read on the opp.

I think restealing is very buyin dependant. Since you're trying to force someone to fold a hand/position that they've already shown interest in, the most important considerations should be your table image and their desire to not be bluffed. The first one is obvious and is more important as the buyin increases. The second is a phenomenon that I never would have believed until I started playing poker. Reverse gap, value-calling, whatever you want to call it. At the low buyins, you constantly see people completing/min-raising, then calling a huge overbet with K6, 33, Q9, etc. People just hate being bluffed. It's important that you don't try a resteal on one of these sheriffs. By the time that a resteal is worthwhile, you should have a decent enough read on villian to make this determination.

The cards obviously matter, but not as much as the situation (Duh).

For example, I have 8/9s on the BB, folded to player in cutoff, makes standard 3x BB raise, we both have 15bb stacks. Do I shove it in here?

That would be a poor question to ask. It depends on the other factors. I have a great hand for "re-stealing", but pushing only on that merit would be terrible. How has villain been playing? If villain has been tight and passed up on a similar opportunity in earlier rounds, I may very well just fold. If villain has been loose and stealing at every decent given opportunity, but I think he is capable of folding enough to be +EV, ramming it in is fine. However, the cards you are holding obviously affect how you fare against villain's calling range and much fold equity you need for the play to be +EV, and saying they are completely meaningless is rediculous. I don't think Rocky meant it that way, I just think he is trying to say the situation is much more important, which it is. If you wouldn't be willing to resteal here with a much worse hand than 9/8s based on other circumstances, its very likely the spot isn't good for a resteal anyway.