Newbie question on counting outs (low content)

Folks. Have read and reread the section in SSHE on counting outs and still a bit confused about when to count overcards as partial outs.

Lets say I have A /images/graemlins/spade.gif k /images/graemlins/spade.gif on the button, folded to me, I raise, both blinds call.

Flop is
9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB bets, BB raises

Now counting outs here I would say I have 1.5 for the
BDFD....but, how many outs should I count the 3 aces and 3 kings as ?? 6 or 3 ?? 3 because TPTK may not be good here ??

See I'm a little confused as to when to count them as partial outs.

Hope someone knows what I'm on about. thanks.

[_Kevin_]

You generally count overcards at half their value so you give yourself 3 outs here for the A & K combined. You could be reverse dominated (i.e., against A5s and K9s) so you can't count them as full outs. If someone flopped a set, you are drawing dead. There is more to the equation than that though. What reads do you have on SB & BB. What hands would they play this way?

If we assume you have 4.5 outs (1.5 for the BD and 3 for the A&K), you need 10.4:1 to call. You are getting 10:1 IF SB doesn't 3 bet and BB doesn't cap. If it gets 3 bet or capped your odds go way down. I would let this go. I don't like being 2 bet into when I was PFR (even though it could have been a steal attempt) and the pot isn't that big. This may be a little weak but I personally wait for a better spot.

[ QUOTE ]
You generally count overcards at half their value so you give yourself 3 outs here for the A & K combined. You could be reverse dominated (i.e., against A5s and K9s) so you can't count them as full outs. If someone flopped a set, you are drawing dead. There is more to the equation than that though. What reads do you have on SB & BB. What hands would they play this way?

If we assume you have 4.5 outs (1.5 for the BD and 3 for the A&K), you need 10.4:1 to call. You are getting 10:1 IF SB doesn't 3 bet and BB doesn't cap. If it gets 3 bet or capped your odds go way down. I would let this go. I don't like being 2 bet into when I was PFR (even though it could have been a steal attempt) and the pot isn't that big. This may be a little weak but I personally wait for a better spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. this not an actual hand, just made it up as a scenario.

So in general we count overcards as 0.5 outs each ?

[numeri]

The standard deduction is to 1.5 each. There are different instances where that can be changed, but this isn't one of them. In particular, we're worried about hands A5 and K9, which have us reverse dominated.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
You generally count overcards at half their value so you give yourself 3 outs here for the A & K combined. You could be reverse dominated (i.e., against A5s and K9s) so you can't count them as full outs. If someone flopped a set, you are drawing dead. There is more to the equation than that though. What reads do you have on SB & BB. What hands would they play this way?

If we assume you have 4.5 outs (1.5 for the BD and 3 for the A&K), you need 10.4:1 to call. You are getting 10:1 IF SB doesn't 3 bet and BB doesn't cap. If it gets 3 bet or capped your odds go way down. I would let this go. I don't like being 2 bet into when I was PFR (even though it could have been a steal attempt) and the pot isn't that big. This may be a little weak but I personally wait for a better spot.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're getting 9.5:2 and it's a very easy fold.

[Nick Royale]

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So in general we count overcards as 0.5 outs each ?

[/ QUOTE ]
To start with it's reasonable. But we all know it depends. On the earlier betting, the texture of the board and your opponents.

And I don't think this is a lc post.

[numeri]

[ QUOTE ]
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So in general we count overcards as 0.5 outs each?

[/ QUOTE ]
To start with it's reasonable. But we all know it depends. On the earlier betting, the texture of the board and your opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]
Before this gets overlooked, I think the OP had a typo or misread here - it's usually 1.5 each, not 0.5.

And Nick makes a good point - it can sometimes be more, sometimes less, depending upon opponents, the board, etc.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
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So in general we count overcards as 0.5 outs each?

[/ QUOTE ]
To start with it's reasonable. But we all know it depends. On the earlier betting, the texture of the board and your opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]
Before this gets overlooked, I think the OP had a typo or misread here - it's usually 1.5 each, not 0.5.

And Nick makes a good point - it can sometimes be more, sometimes less, depending upon opponents, the board, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
I assume he ment 0.5 out/overcard = 0.5*3 = 1.5

[numeri]

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I assume he he ment 0.5 out/overcard = 0.5*3 = 1.5

[/ QUOTE ]
Gotcha. That works, too. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

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So in general we count overcards as 0.5 outs each?

[/ QUOTE ]
To start with it's reasonable. But we all know it depends. On the earlier betting, the texture of the board and your opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]
Before this gets overlooked, I think the OP had a typo or misread here - it's usually 1.5 each, not 0.5.

And Nick makes a good point - it can sometimes be more, sometimes less, depending upon opponents, the board, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
I assume he ment 0.5 out/overcard = 0.5*3 = 1.5

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I did. thanks for the replies. Think I'm getting it now.

OK one more scenario to see if I'm grasping this

Hero is in CO with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, he raises, SB calls, everyone else folds.

Flop comes down 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif

SB checks, so now we have the BDFD for 1.5 outs and we would count our overcards as 6 outs here since TPTk would likely win this pot since it is headsup and the flop is not co-ordinated ???

Assume no reads on SB.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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So in general we count overcards as 0.5 outs each?

[/ QUOTE ]
To start with it's reasonable. But we all know it depends. On the earlier betting, the texture of the board and your opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]
Before this gets overlooked, I think the OP had a typo or misread here - it's usually 1.5 each, not 0.5.

And Nick makes a good point - it can sometimes be more, sometimes less, depending upon opponents, the board, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
I assume he ment 0.5 out/overcard = 0.5*3 = 1.5

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I did. thanks for the replies. Think I'm getting it now.

OK one more scenario to see if I'm grasping this

Hero is in CO with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, he raises, SB calls, everyone else folds.

Flop comes down 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif

SB checks, so now we have the BDFD for 1.5 outs and we would count our overcards as 6 outs here since TPTk would likely win this pot since it is headsup and the flop is not co-ordinated ???

Assume no reads on SB.

[/ QUOTE ]
When SB checks it's an autobet, no need to count.

More interesting if SB leads. (I assume I'm being even if we're ahead pretty often since hu SB will donkbet pretty often with A-high or just garbage). I would count slightly less than 1.5 for the bdfd and maybe about 4.5-5 outs for your overs. And you're recieving some implied odds because you'll most often win when you hit.

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
So in general we count overcards as 0.5 outs each?

[/ QUOTE ]
To start with it's reasonable. But we all know it depends. On the earlier betting, the texture of the board and your opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]
Before this gets overlooked, I think the OP had a typo or misread here - it's usually 1.5 each, not 0.5.

And Nick makes a good point - it can sometimes be more, sometimes less, depending upon opponents, the board, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
I assume he ment 0.5 out/overcard = 0.5*3 = 1.5

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I did. thanks for the replies. Think I'm getting it now.

OK one more scenario to see if I'm grasping this

Hero is in CO with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, he raises, SB calls, everyone else folds.

Flop comes down 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif

SB checks, so now we have the BDFD for 1.5 outs and we would count our overcards as 6 outs here since TPTk would likely win this pot since it is headsup and the flop is not co-ordinated ???

Assume no reads on SB.

[/ QUOTE ]
When SB checks it's an autobet, no need to count.

More interesting if SB leads. (I assume I'm being even if we're ahead pretty often since hu SB will donkbet pretty often with A-high or just garbage). I would count slightly less than 1.5 for the bdfd and maybe about 4.5-5 outs for your overs. And you're recieving some implied odds because you'll most often win when you hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah man, I'm confused LOL. Why less that 1.5 for the bdfd here ? why only 5 outs for the overs ?

Yeah I know its an autobet, just say for instance we're counting odd just for the fun of it /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Thanks for ur help.

[Nick Royale]

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Why less that 1.5 for the bdfd here ?

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The magic number 1.5 for bdfd is including implied odds, when hu I think it's proper to discount it some since we're not likely to make as many bets when we hit. Not a big deal though.

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why only 5 outs for the overs ?

[/ QUOTE ]
A9/A7/A4/44/77/99/97. Against these hands we have 3/3/3/0/0/0/0 outs. At best we're having 6 outs and even though we're not likely to be drawing dead the times we are will have an effect on us, it would be bad to assume the best possible scenario every time. But as said, implied odds often covers.

The tricky thing about a hu situation like this when SB bets is to estimate how often we're already ahead. Raising is almost always better than calling here IMO. If we add 1-2 more players it's easier to estimate outs because we can assume we're behind and drawing.

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Why less that 1.5 for the bdfd here ?

[/ QUOTE ]
The magic number 1.5 for bdfd is including implied odds, when hu I think it's proper to discount it some since we're not likely to make as many bets when we hit. Not a big deal though.

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why only 5 outs for the overs ?

[/ QUOTE ]
A9/A7/A4/44/77/99/97. Against these hands we have 3/3/3/0/0/0/0 outs. At best we're having 6 outs and even though we're not likely to be drawing dead the times we are will have an effect on us, it would be bad to assume the best possible scenario every time. But as said, implied odds often covers.

The tricky thing about a hu situation like this when SB bets is to estimate how often we're already ahead. Raising is almost always better than calling here IMO. If we add 1-2 more players it's easier to estimate outs because we can assume we're behind and drawing.

[/ QUOTE ]


Okay think I'm getting it now /images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

Reverse implied odd reduce the outs ?

Awesome replies, thanks a lot.

[Nick Royale]

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Reverse implied odd reduce the outs ?


[/ QUOTE ]
Reverse implied odds is a bit more complicated and often misapplied. According to ToP reverse implied odds come into play when:

<ul type="square"> 1. You're not sure where you're at.
2. You have a little chance to beat the hand your opponent already have or might make.
3. A call commits you to calling future bets all the way to the end.
4. Your opponent can back off at any time. [/list]
It's a kind of complex subject, but it doesn't apply in any of the hands in this post.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Reverse implied odd reduce the outs ?


[/ QUOTE ]
Reverse implied odds is a bit more complicated and often misapplied. According to ToP reverse implied odds come into play when:

<ul type="square"> 1. You're not sure where you're at.
2. You have a little chance to beat the hand your opponent already have or might make.
3. A call commits you to calling future bets all the way to the end.
4. Your opponent can back off at any time. [/list]
It's a kind of complex subject, but it doesn't apply in any of the hands in this post.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh man, I'm a complete n00b /images/graemlins/frown.gif.

[numeri]

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Reverse implied odd reduce the outs ?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you mean reverse domination.

For example: You have AK, villain has A7 on 763 flop. If you hit your A, you're screwed. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

EDIT: for the example.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Reverse implied odd reduce the outs ?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you mean reverse domination.

For example: You have AK, villain has A7 on 763 flop. If you hit your A, you're screwed. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

EDIT: for the example.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep I meant that, for some reason I thought thats what reverse implieds odds was.

/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[MrWookie47]

Tiltaholic's helpful collection of threads on downswings and variance. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=micro&amp;Number=3653674&amp;fpart =1&amp;PHPSESSID=)

[POKhER]

Hey bro,

Firstly - Reverse Implied Odds, This is the term when you might be in the lead now, But in the future the betting and cards to come could screw you.

meaning the future bets... Cost you.

As with a flush draw to nuts, say vs two calling stations you river flush and will raise. well on the turn you now assume you'll get 4extra bets (2from them firstly, Then 2once you raise and they call and you win).

Well reverse of this would be THEM GETTING BETS OFF YOU, when they kick your ass you see?

So implied = Bets we may make up so we add.
But the reverse of this would be bets we LOSE in the future.

Please see SSH Page 33-34.

Being Reverse dominates is as already described but see pages 54-55


Counting outs in general,

Overcards: 1.5 outs,
BD flush/Straights(1gap): 1.5 each

Theres also 2gap straights, but to be honest they are pretty crap and i don't bother with them.

You'll get a better idea as you gain experience. If we have two overcard e.g.

AKs on a 824board HEADS UP, Villan we know(the dealer told us) has 87o.

We would have 6clean outs to the A/K and maybe a BDFD if theres a suited card on the deck.

But if the dealer didn't tell us and he bets, maybe he holds A8/K8... Now we're not sure if he has A8... or K8.

So we have 3outs to the aces,
We have 3outs to the Kings.

Now we don't know which we has so we assume we have 3outs of one of the cards and conclude WE HAVE 3OUTS.

But if we go back to overcards being 1.5outs, and we have 2 of them ... its also 3outs... So we just saved ourself time by assuming 1.5outs. You see?

This doesn't ALWAYS save us from being reversed dominated however because if we spike a ace Vs A8... we will usually bet like mad with our TPTK... And when we get 3bet call down etc(Of course situation dependant i.e. texture, villan etc).

However it can help.
Catch you on msn bro.

[ QUOTE ]
Hey bro,

Firstly - Reverse Implied Odds, This is the term when you might be in the lead now, But in the future the betting and cards to come could screw you.

meaning the future bets... Cost you.

As with a flush draw to nuts, say vs two calling stations you river flush and will raise. well on the turn you now assume you'll get 4extra bets (2from them firstly, Then 2once you raise and they call and you win).

Well reverse of this would be THEM GETTING BETS OFF YOU, when they kick your ass you see?

So implied = Bets we may make up so we add.
But the reverse of this would be bets we LOSE in the future.

Please see SSH Page 33-34.

Being Reverse dominates is as already described but see pages 54-55


Counting outs in general,

Overcards: 1.5 outs,
BD flush/Straights(1gap): 1.5 each

Theres also 2gap straights, but to be honest they are pretty crap and i don't bother with them.

You'll get a better idea as you gain experience. If we have two overcard e.g.

AKs on a 824board HEADS UP, Villan we know(the dealer told us) has 87o.

We would have 6clean outs to the A/K and maybe a BDFD if theres a suited card on the deck.

But if the dealer didn't tell us and he bets, maybe he holds A8/K8... Now we're not sure if he has A8... or K8.

So we have 3outs to the aces,
We have 3outs to the Kings.

Now we don't know which we has so we assume we have 3outs of one of the cards and conclude WE HAVE 3OUTS.

But if we go back to overcards being 1.5outs, and we have 2 of them ... its also 3outs... So we just saved ourself time by assuming 1.5outs. You see?

This doesn't ALWAYS save us from being reversed dominated however because if we spike a ace Vs A8... we will usually bet like mad with our TPTK... And when we get 3bet call down etc(Of course situation dependant i.e. texture, villan etc).

However it can help.
Catch you on msn bro.

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VERY NICE HAND.

thanks a lot for that clear explanation bro.

[aces_dad]

That's a good link but how does it relate to out counting?

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That's a good link but how does it relate to out counting?

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL yeah good point !! /images/graemlins/smirk.gif