OT: Unsatisfied with goals acheived

[AleoMagus]

As a new year's goal, I set a profit mark to aim for this year, and as of a few days ago, I hit that mark. I have also expanded my repertoire this year. I played a lot of limit hold'em, Omaha 8, and really improved my multi table tourney game.

I didn't play much compared to many of you. less than 2000 SNGs so far. About 60 multis, maybe 30,000 hands of ring game play.

I should be happy, but I think my own laziness has really held me back this year. I can't help but look back at the past 10 months and feel very unsatisfied.

I need a better plan in the coming year, but I'm not sure what my goals should even be this time around.

I'm not sure why I am even posting this so forgive me. Maybe one of you has felt the same way at some point and has some wisdom for me.

Regards
Brad S

[Stoneii]

set a new goal just outside your comfort zone ?

[AleoMagus]

Hi Stoneii.

Yeah, I suppose more ambitious goals are the obvious answer, but I guess the fact that I didn't set overly ambitious goals this year is part of my problem. I knew this year that I probably should have, but didn't.

From an objective standpoint, I look at online poker right now and say "anyone with a decent game could make a killing if they stay disciplined and put in the hours" but I know the reality of my own situation too well I guess.

I just don't have the motivation to put in the hours, and I think a part of me seriously doesn't even believe that I could make a killing. I don't know why I don't believe it, but I guess I just don't.

Maybe part of it is because a past attempt at playing poker as my sole source of income worked out so badly. I wasn't meeting my expenses every month and in the end my bankroll just got eaten away over a few months. Granted I was way less seasoned back then, and I have come a long way, but still.

Then there is the less tangible aspect of my dissatisfaction... The real goals that I'd like to acheive are not really things that I think a person should be setting as goals.

For example, I'd like to make a final table at a televised poker event. Something like a WSOP preliminarly event would be nice. Seriously.

But this is a silly goal for a number of reasons. I have never even been to vegas let alone played in a big buy-in tourney. Also, how can you set a goal on something so subject to variance when at most, if I sacrificed an uncomfortably big chunk of yearly profit, I could only play one or two anyways.

So I ask myself... Why do I want this? Maybe I can get what I really want some other way? Well, becasue as it is, I think I am a great player and I am proud of what I have acheived, but deep down I'll admit, I'm tired of shooting fish in a barrel and I want some approval. A little recognition that I feel gets doled out far too frequently to sub-par players who win sattelites and don't really play a high level game. I want that recognition and I want to compete against a higher calibre of player.

A while ago, I went home and visited my father for the first time in a long time, and when I was there I downloaded Partypoker to play one night. The next day, he went to the icon and renamed it "Addictive Sickness". I just laughed like I often do, and explained that without poker I wouldn't be surviving, which I think he even understands, but still... It really bugged me.

Sad father doesn't undertand story bla bla bla, I know.

That's not the point. This attitude seems to resonate from many in my life right now, and I undertand why. Because poker for me is so confined to a generally hard to understand and appreciate environment - namely online play.

I mean, I am certainly not impressed when I hear that someone has a x% ROI over y SNGs. I can only imagine how this sort of thing goes over other people's heads, not that I would know, becasue I am smart enough to not even try and explain.

Reading over this, I sound like some kind of insecure teenager, but let me assure you that I only use examples of other people in my life to express a deeper personal feeling of dissatisfaction. In the end, if it was just my dad who thought poker was a waste of time, then big deal, but in some real way, I am starting to think poker as it exists in my life right now is becoming a waste of time.

Well, obviously that is wrong. Poker is clearly not a waste of time for me... But I guess I just want a lot more from it.

Regards
Brad S

This year is far from over. Since you've now reached your goal and are already thinking about next year, I have a cool plan for the rest of the year: study your ass off, learn as much as as you can about poker. If you do this, you can start the new year as a much better player and you can win much more. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Big Limpin']

A man may fulfill the object of his existence by asking a question he cannot answer, and attempting a task he cannot achieve.

-Oliver Wendell Holmes

[fnord_too]

My goals went to hell this year. Hell, STT's weren't even in the plan. Here's a thought for you, though: Why not form a comprehensive plan for the next say 5 years (or longer), and figure out where poker fits in the grand scheme things for you. For instance, say you wanted to retire in 10 years and live a life a leasure. You are an analysis king, just work out what it would take to get there and see if you can form a plan using all your assets and skills to get there. That is, don't just set arbitrary poker goals, try making them part of the bigger picture.

[fnord_too]

I wrote my first reply before reading this (your second post in the thread).

Something like making the final table of a WPT event is not a silly goal you should not set if that is what you want to do. Again, just form a good plan of attack. Playing a lot of on line satelites is a good approach. I have that as a goal over the next 5 (well, 4 now) years. I'm slacking though since I quite MTT's mainly for lower variance right now. (Damn 6 month break even period after my second daughter was born has killed my bankroll, but I am only a semi-pro, or whatever the hell you call people with real jobs, too, but for whom it would be painful to lose the poker income.)

Edit - fixed one (of probably many) gramatical error.

[skipperbob]

"Sir, I exist" a man said to the Universe;
"the fact," replied the Universe, "has not created in me a sense of obligation"

[Stoneii]

Brad

At work so don't have time to spend on a suitable reply. Suffice to say, and to thieve and Americanism, I definitely hear ya!!

Will try reply later this evening (UK evening /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

stoneii

[Pepsquad]

[ QUOTE ]
My goals went to hell this year. Hell, STT's weren't even in the plan. Here's a thought for you, though: Why not form a comprehensive plan for the next say 5 years (or longer), and figure out where poker fits in the grand scheme things for you. For instance, say you wanted to retire in 10 years and live a life a leasure. You are an analysis king, just work out what it would take to get there and see if you can form a plan using all your assets and skills to get there. That is, don't just set arbitrary poker goals, try making them part of the bigger picture.

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome post. When I read Aleo's reply I was thinking something along these lines but couldn't find the words. Fnord nailed it. So it sounds as though you hit your dollar amount for the year and are left feeling unsatisfied? Maybe there's a deeper issue at play here that has nothing at all to do with poker (or, at least the dollar amount won from poker).
Aleo, the words from your reply that really stuck out like a sore thumb for me were your reference to a previous failed career as a fulltime pro. Maybe deep down, your afraid to set a possibly unavchievable goal when it comes to poker because you've already been there and done that (and failed) and you're afraid to try again.
Maybe it would help to look at setting goals that involve what role poker is going to play in your life over the next 5+...10+ years.

[nyc999]

[ QUOTE ]
For example, I'd like to make a final table at a televised poker event. Something like a WSOP preliminarly event would be nice. Seriously.

But this is a silly goal for a number of reasons. I have never even been to vegas let alone played in a big buy-in tourney. Also, how can you set a goal on something so subject to variance when at most, if I sacrificed an uncomfortably big chunk of yearly profit, I could only play one or two anyways.


[/ QUOTE ]

Most big tournaments can be reached via SNG qualifiers. I think if your real goal is to make final tables in these tournaments, focus your playing time on these satellites.

Also, I agree with the post which talked about 5 - 10 year goals. It puts everything you are doing in perspective, and it might make it easier to sit down and play every day.

If not, you've already reached your goals for the year - why not take a break for a few weeks and then re-evaluate.

I know it's not really the type of recognition you are looking for. But I would just like to say that I have read with facination some of your posts in the archives, and at least this little fish testing the waters of poker has a lot of respect for you /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]

I just don't have the motivation to put in the hours, and I think a part of me seriously doesn't even believe that I could make a killing. I don't know why I don't believe it, but I guess I just don't.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Brad-

This is where I'm at. Completely. I'm either afraid of failure or I'm afraid of success, and it holds me back from making it to the "next level"; perhaps it's the same for you.

I don't think it's foolish to want success at the highest levels. It's true that the big buyin tourneys are too big for most bankrolls. I like Fnord's advice, and perhaps you can set a goal of creating a bankroll over 5 years or so that will allow you to take shots at these bigger tourneys.

In the poker game of life, it's time for your c-bet. Make it a strong one.

-Zip

[stupidsucker]

If anyone knows how it feels to be "unsatisfied" with goals and poker... It is me.

I get so down on myself. The thing is, for the first year of my professional career I was lazy and not goal oriented at all. When I moved back to the bay I started focusing on al kinds of long term goals. Since then,..... nothing. Just doesnt make sense.

[PrayingMantis]

"The wise man strives to no goals, but the foolish man fetters himself."

Seng-T'san, Hsin Hsin Ming (Verses on the Faith Mind).

[Irieguy]

Brad,

I know how you feel when you say that you think you should be taking advantage of the current on-line poker environment more than you are currently. I feel that way all of the time, and we all know that it is not likely to ever be quite as lucrative as it is right now.

We tend to think that just because poker is as soft as ever right now, we should be playing as much as feasibly possible. But I know several players who play poker 12-20 hours a day, and none of them are exactly the picture of health, happiness, and well-being.


What exactly did your profit goal do for you this year? Did it help you play better poker? Did it make you happier?

Clearly your primary objective with your poker career has little to do with profit, since you met your profit goal and are still left feeling dissatisfied.

In your reply post you get to what really matters to you with this game. You would really like to acheive a level of success that publicly legitimizes your efforts. That's a very reasonable, and human, ambition.

But as you know, whether or not you acheive something like a WPT final table has little to do with your mastery of the game. Still, it's what you want and you need to try if you want to feel better about your pokerlife this time next year.

So, here's my suggestion:

1. Spend a day seriously contemplating your poker goals.
2. Write these goals down on a piece of paper.
3. Light the piece of paper on fire and watch it burn.

Hopefully this exercise will help you purge the restrictive, self-loathing poison that is goal-setting from your conscious and subconscious mind.

Then play poker when you want to. Play each hand the best way you can. Take shots at big events whenever you are able. Have fun.

Irieguy

[tigerite]

Great advice, Irie. That's pretty much what I've been doing. If I don't really feel like playing at any time, I try not to beat myself up about it, and don't. But then again, it's just a hobby to me, and not my work, so it's probably easier for me to say that.

[SuitedSixes]

Brad-

Here's my take on your desire to play (and succeed) at poker on a bigger stage:

I am often bothered by the predatorial nature of playing poker for a living. I succeed because I have a better understanding than 90% of the players who play at my buy-in, which really doesn't feel like much of an accomplishment sometimes . . . I just suck less than everyone else. By wanting to be successful at something like the WSOP, I think you are just trying to take your game to a point where you are proving your skills against (more) better players.

Also, you set a goal to make pooh-bah, and you're not even close. You have 2 1/2 months, get busy posting porn links, "NH"s, and quoting what others have already said, and you should make it easily.

-Brian S

Become a Buddhist. All this wanting's no good for you; just do stuff and enjoy it for no particular reason.

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, you set a goal to make pooh-bah, and you're not even close. You have 2 1/2 months, get busy posting porn links, "NH"s, and quoting what others have already said, and you should make it easily.


[/ QUOTE ]

NH.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
Become a Buddhist. All this wanting's no good for you; just do stuff and enjoy it for no particular reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, except that you don't need to become a Buddhist or anything else. Becoming things is part of the problem.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Become a Buddhist. All this wanting's no good for you; just do stuff and enjoy it for no particular reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, except that you don't need to become a Buddhist or anything else. Becoming things is part of the problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was really shocked to see someone give an answer similar to mine.

Desiring anything is bad. Desiring to end all desire is good. Ending all desire requires the eightfold path. The best way to acheive the eightfold path is to try for a while, fail, and then give up.

I love Buddhism and seriously think it's the absolute solution to sadness and frustration.

[SuitedSixes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, you set a goal to make pooh-bah, and you're not even close. You have 2 1/2 months, get busy posting porn links, "NH"s, and quoting what others have already said, and you should make it easily.


[/ QUOTE ]

NH.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
Ending all desire requires the eightfold path.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are endless paths. And the Buddhists' 8-fold path is certainly a valid one.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]

A while ago, I went home and visited my father for the first time in a long time, and when I was there I downloaded Partypoker to play one night. The next day, he went to the icon and renamed it "Addictive Sickness". I just laughed like I often do, and explained that without poker I wouldn't be surviving, which I think he even understands, but still... It really bugged me.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think maybe your poker goal setting problem is a red herring. I would guess that the TV event goal is really an attempt at changing minds about what you're doing (because everyone's a sucker for people on TV.)

I think maybe you'd be better served by looking for goals that are outside poker that are going to be more satisfying for you.

What that might be, is very hard to say without knowing you beyond what you've posted here.

eastbay

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]

Desiring anything is bad. Desiring to end all desire is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well how can anyone argue with that airtight reasoning.

eastbay

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ending all desire requires the eightfold path.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are endless paths. And the Buddhists' 8-fold path is certainly a valid one.

[/ QUOTE ]

They're all the same. While I'm not particularly well-versed in other methods, I've never heard any other religion or school or whatever articulate the absurdity of thought clearly.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Desiring anything is bad. Desiring to end all desire is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well how can anyone argue with that airtight reasoning.

eastbay

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the point. If you think about that for long enough you just quit and start understanding it.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Desiring anything is bad. Desiring to end all desire is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well how can anyone argue with that airtight reasoning.

eastbay

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the point. If you think about that for long enough you just quit and start understanding it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ohmmmmm.... (silly)

eastbay

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Desiring anything is bad. Desiring to end all desire is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well how can anyone argue with that airtight reasoning.

eastbay

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the point. If you think about that for long enough you just quit and start understanding it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ohmmmmm.... (silly)

eastbay

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. That's what I get I guess. Nh.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
While I'm not particularly well-versed in other methods, I've never heard any other religion or school or whatever articulate the absurdity of thought clearly.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, you are wrong if you believe that Buddhism as a whole (Buddhism in fact is many many different things) articulates the absurdity of thought (certainly not thought _in particular_), for instance there's a great tradition of Buddhistic logic and philosophical reasoning. but I don't think we're in the right place to discuss it.

Second, there are many other schools or "religions", most of them "born" in India of course, that are actually much more radical than Buddhism with regard to what I think you mean when you write "absurdity of thought". But again, that's not the time or the place.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
While I'm not particularly well-versed in other methods, I've never heard any other religion or school or whatever articulate the absurdity of thought clearly.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, you are wrong if you believe that Buddhism as a whole (Buddhism in fact is many many different things) articulates the absurdity of thought (certainly not thought _in particular_), for instance there's a great tradition of Buddhistic logic and philosophical reasoning. but I don't think we're in the right place to discuss it.

Second, there are many other schools or "religions", most of them "born" in India of course, that are actually much more radical than Buddhism with regard to what I think you mean when you write "absurdity of thought". But again, that's not the time or the place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. I'll play the ignorance card. I left out the word "Zen" before Buddhism just about everywhere.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
Fair enough. I'll play the ignorance card. I left out the word "Zen" before Buddhism just about everywhere.


[/ QUOTE ]

I thought you meant zen more than anything else. Now let's stop with this hijack... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Become a Buddhist. All this wanting's no good for you; just do stuff and enjoy it for no particular reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, except that you don't need to become a Buddhist or anything else. Becoming things is part of the problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was really shocked to see someone give an answer similar to mine.

Desiring anything is bad. Desiring to end all desire is good. Ending all desire requires the eightfold path. The best way to acheive the eightfold path is to try for a while, fail, and then give up.

I love Buddhism and seriously think it's the absolute solution to sadness and frustration.

[/ QUOTE ]

w00t! Didn't expect this on this forum! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Although I haven't really studied Buddhism or anything like that, I do like it. I read the book 'I am that' (most of it), because on amazon I saw ONLY positive reviews, and I got curious. It's a book that consists only of questions by people, and answers by this 'realized' guy. I'm still a little skeptical, because of some of the things he says (he basically says nothing is real, everything is created by the mind, forget about your body and mind and... well read reviews on amazon.) but, well.. I like it.

"Stop making use of your mind and see what happens. Do this one thing thoroughly. That is all."

/images/graemlins/smile.gif and now we stop the hijack.

[PrayingMantis]

Yes, Nisargadatta Maharaj is amazing. These are 500 pages of absolute delight (BTW he isn't buddhist at all, he "belongs" to a small hinduistic ancient school, called "Navanath Sampradaya".)

[citanul]

don't set a $ goal would be my first advice.

maybe set a goal of how many hours you want to spend playing poker or working on poker, and set goals about things like "i want to learn to play stud 8 at a competant to high level." things like that.

if you set yourself a goal at the beginning of the year in terms of hours, and you met that goal, you shouldn't feel lazy, you should feel like maybe your goal wasn't high enough, or something. or maybe you should be looking at why you set that number originally. is poker time now eating in to other stuff time? do you just have more free time than you expected? etc.

long term goals i think shouldn't even really exist in the form of 'play x hours, work x hours' unless this is your income source, and you find it hard to play the hours (in which case my goal would be something like "find a better type of employment"). if you love the game and want to make a stronger time commitment to it, do so, but don't set a monetary goal. maybe set a number at which you'll buy yourself a particular toy/present/vacation, or something like that. something to have out there, but not think about constantly.

anyways, at work, can't really do much more right now.

good luck,

c

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, Nisargadatta Maharaj is amazing. These are 500 pages of absolute delight (BTW he isn't buddhist at all, he "belongs" to a small hinduistic ancient school, called "Navanath Sampradaya".)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I didn't think he was a buddhist (he doesn't say so at least), but it's about what he says anyway.

[AleoMagus]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, you set a goal to make pooh-bah, and you're not even close. You have 2 1/2 months, get busy posting porn links, "NH"s, and quoting what others have already said, and you should make it easily.


[/ QUOTE ]

Oh my goodness, you are right. I did resolve to make pooh-bah by the end of the year and I am way behind. Perhaps this is the real subconcious root of my troubles!!!!
/images/graemlins/grin.gif How on earth did you remeber that?

Oh well, there's always next year, or OOT...

Regards
Brad S

[AleoMagus]

[ QUOTE ]
I think maybe you'd be better served by looking for goals that are outside poker that are going to be more satisfying for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, this is almost certainly true, and became obvious to me as I read over last night's post.

Really, I suppose I'd have a greater chance of getting a PhD in the next 5 years than of making a WPT final table, and come to think of it, when I was a little kid I always wanted a PhD, but never even knew what poker was.

Put another way, I don't actually even want a PhD, but simply still love philosophy and logic. More than Poker. But I set no goals to continue my education this year yet had a clear plan for my poker progress. Really strange, now that I think about it.

That said, I still think I need to seriously change my attitude about poker and the kinds of things that I want from poker.

Regards
Brad S

[AleoMagus]

There are a lot of other people in this thread and who PM'ed me that I should thank for some good responses.

In particular, I am actually surprised and comforted that so many people let me know that they understood how I feel. I don't seem to be alone in feeling a bit dissatisfied with my (good!) results, and from the looks of things, it's fairly common.

As Irie said, it is hard to look at online poker and really feel like we are getting the most from it, because there is SOOOO much money out there and it's probably never going to be this easy again. As Irie also implied though, that doesn't automatically mean playing 12+ hrs a day is the answer.

I'd also like to share a little bit of a PM that lori sent me that I really liked

[ QUOTE ]
almost anyone who is lazy enough in life to want to make a living from poker is lazy enough not to do it properly.


[/ QUOTE ]

Frighteningly true, but somehow made me smile at the same time.

Finally, I agree with all those that suggested I can simply solve this problem by looking at the big picture and making longer term goals and plans to get whatever I think I want. I'm already working on it.

buddhism-schmooddissm /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Regards
Brad S

[bennies]

[ QUOTE ]
almost anyone who is lazy enough in life to want to make a living from poker is lazy enough not to do it properly.


[/ QUOTE ]
as if the world was full of other great opportunities...



Good thread otherwise, good luck feeling better. Maybe if you made a blog (yet another one, I know) it would make playing poker more "legit" in the eyes of your dad and others that you seek approval from?

By the way, your dad's response is not so bad. When I told my dad I was playing he immediately began himself. After work every day, he usually plays several hours but when I try to explain Icm, FE or other things to help him win, he doesn't listen...

[Slim Pickens]

Satisfaction from meeting your goals comes from the feeling of control over one's enviroment that meeting a goal implies existed. Setting goals about playing a certain amount or winning a certain amount is just tying your feelings of personal satisfaction to events outside of your control. You're too smart to fool yourself into thinking you have any control over what makes $x over less than 2k STT's, and thus you get less personal satisfaction out if it than people who don't understand how the statistical machinary works. In a way, you've killed the goose that laid the golden egg. If you feel you have to set goals, set them where reaching them necessarily means you've accomplished something, and not just had something happen to you.

I'm getting lori's quote tattooed on my ass. Then I'm going to moon anyone who tells me he/she wants to become a professional poker player.

SlimP

[stupidsucker]

[ QUOTE ]
almost anyone who is lazy enough in life to want to make a living from poker is lazy enough not to do it properly.


[/ QUOTE ]

I knew someone has been watching me...

[1C5]

What is lori's quote?

[ QUOTE ]
There are a lot of other people in this thread and who PM'ed me that I should thank for some good responses.

In particular, I am actually surprised and comforted that so many people let me know that they understood how I feel. I don't seem to be alone in feeling a bit dissatisfied with my (good!) results, and from the looks of things, it's fairly common.

As Irie said, it is hard to look at online poker and really feel like we are getting the most from it, because there is SOOOO much money out there and it's probably never going to be this easy again. As Irie also implied though, that doesn't automatically mean playing 12+ hrs a day is the answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have the same. I feel like an idiot for not making much more, so now I'm trying to improve. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Lately I've been lurking at the mid/high stakes NL forum, and you see guys winning 25K in one hand there. /images/graemlins/mad.gif /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
almost anyone who is lazy enough in life to want to make a living from poker is lazy enough not to do it properly.

[/ QUOTE ]

[chisness]

you need to spend some time making different types of goals. i think the most important one is, especially if you're finding it hard to stay motivated AND in order to not get burned out by getting too motivated and living unhealthily by playing too much, to set an amount of SNGs/ring hands per year. really think about how many you are able to do, something like how many days a week and how many hours you expect to play (and revise this if you realize you were initially off). you could estimate your yearly profit playing this amount of poker, but setting a profit goal doesn't seem useful as profit will come with # played and increased performance automatically. this helps keep you on track but may not be fulfilling to you.

in order to make yourself feel good as well, you should set less explicit goals (kind of more guidelines than goals) as some suggested above, like "paste questionable hands into text document and review them for 30 minutes after each session" or "study PL omaha, read XX book, and improve" or "try to play as many sats as possible to get to a wpt event." you could possibly set ROI or BB/100 goals here too.