I call this right??

[LotsOfOuts69]

Wanted to try out the ten-table thing on party so I fired up 10 $20+2's.

Anyway sorry for not converting, assuming no reads....

#Game No : 2889304531
***** Hand History for Game 2889304531 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:16651993 Level:6 Blinds(100/200) - Monday, October 17, 01:46:32 EDT 2005
Table Table 66979 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 9: DGip1106 ( $2510 )
Seat 10: TITANIC777 ( $2275 )
Seat 1: LotsOfOuts69 ( $2225 )
Seat 4: mr_burrit0 ( $990 )
Trny:16651993 Level:6
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to LotsOfOuts69 [ Qd Qh ]
mr_burrit0 folds.
DGip1106 is all-In [2510]
TITANIC777 folds.
LotsOfOuts69 is all-In [2025]

** Dealing Flop ** [ 6c, 6h, 3c ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Kc ]
** Dealing River ** [ 3d ]

Results in white:
<font color="white"> LotsOfOuts69 shows [ Qd, Qh ] two pairs, queens and sixes.
DGip1106 shows [ Jh, Ks ] two pairs, kings and sixes.
DGip1106 wins 285 chips from side pot #1 with two pairs, kings and sixes.
DGip1106 wins 4550 chips from the main pot with two pairs, kings and sixes.
LotsOfOuts69 finished in fourth place.
</font>

In addition, if you say call, would you fold if the short stack had less chips? How low would he have to be?

[mmbt0ne]

Without any other kind of read:

I'm calling with QQ+, AK. I'm folding JJ, and everything else.

[Karak567]

You might not know it and you may have unconsciously tried to do a good job of disguising this, but by posting results you confirmed that this is a bad beat post.

Very, very easy call.

I'd call because odds are you're a big favorite, which you were. Maybe if the short stack had &lt;4 BBs, I'd fold and wait. But by calling this, you're putting yourself in great shape to win, not just coast into the money.

[LotsOfOuts69]

[ QUOTE ]
You might not know it and you may have unconsciously tried to do a good job of disguising this, but by posting results you confirmed that this is a bad beat post.

Very, very easy call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, if I wanted to make a bad beat post, I would have included this and 128164374814612 other hands I've played in the last week.

I didn't even consider this a "bad" beat, I knew before calling that the guy probably had at least an ace (if not a king) and that I would probably have a 25% chance of busting out fourth. Thats why i thought after that folding might be a better option, but then I thought that I was crazy. So I wanted to get other perspectives.

[LotsOfOuts69]

[ QUOTE ]
Without any other kind of read:

I'm calling with QQ+, AK. I'm folding JJ, and everything else.

[/ QUOTE ]

Call AK and fold JJ huh? If you call AK you are coin flipping with all pairs and dominating weaker aces and kings.

If you call with JJ you are dominating all under pairs and dominating weak aces and kings, coin flipping with AK AQ KQ and the only extra hand that dominates JJ rather than AK is QQ.

I don't see a difference, if anything I think calling with JJ is better no? I dont use those fancy calulation things

[microbet]

It's a call. The thing is the short stack isn't THAT short. If you cut his stack in half QQ is probably a fold.

Still, I wouldn't say it's an easy call since JJ is a fold unless villian is trying to pwn the bubble or something.

[microbet]

JJ is better than AK.

[LotsOfOuts69]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a call. The thing is the short stack isn't THAT short. If you cut his stack in half QQ is probably a fold.

Still, I wouldn't say it's an easy call since JJ is a fold unless villian is trying to pwn the bubble or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe someone could create a cool list using that ICM thing or something that you could get a nice calling range of hands based on how short the short stack is at your table on the bubble(% compared to your stack).

It could be based off a semi knowledgeable person pushing a normail range of hands (assunimg he is not pushing everything but also is trying to get blinds on the bubble.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a call. The thing is the short stack isn't THAT short. If you cut his stack in half QQ is probably a fold.

Still, I wouldn't say it's an easy call since JJ is a fold unless villian is trying to pwn the bubble or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain seems to either be trying to dominate the bubble or actually thinks his awful hand is good, in the low levels that I play. I'm the expert of nothing, but in the 20's it seems that JJ would be a good calling hand, considering that villain is in perfect stealing position on the bubble and would be highly tempted to do it even with pretty mediocre cards, if he even understood what mediocre cards were. Which might be pretty questionable at lower levels.

[Exitonly]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a call. The thing is the short stack isn't THAT short. If you cut his stack in half QQ is probably a fold.



[/ QUOTE ]

Er... what? I'm really tired, but i have no idea what you mean if you cut his stack in half then you fold QQ...

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's a call. The thing is the short stack isn't THAT short. If you cut his stack in half QQ is probably a fold.



[/ QUOTE ]
Er... what? I'm really tired, but i have no idea what you mean if you cut his stack in half then you fold QQ...

[/ QUOTE ]
If the short stack is short enough, the becomes too risky to go all in with QQ. You could wait for him to bust rather than chance busting.

[Exitonly]

AHA!

i thought he was talking about the guy pushing...

And that just made no sense.

Alright, time for bed.

Thanks

[Blarg]

But you could also put yourself in an excellent position to take first place, and first place has as much difference from 2nd as 4th has from 3rd.

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
But you could also put yourself in an excellent position to take first place, and first place has as much difference from 2nd as 4th has from 3rd.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't disagree. With AA, it would be a clear call. But with QQ, if the shortie is short enough, say 10 for example, then obviously a fold would be appropriate.

[tigerite]

Unless he's pushing &lt;11%, yes, this is a call.

KJ isn't in this range by the way. (44+, ATo+, A8s+, KQs)

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless he's pushing &lt;11%, yes, this is a call.

KJ isn't in this range by the way. (44+, ATo+, A8s+, KQs)

[/ QUOTE ]

that's a pretty useful stat. is there a way to make sngpt spit that out quickly or did you just do some trial and error?

[mlagoo]

Easy call. I'd consider folding if the short stack was at 400 or less.

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]

I knew before calling that the guy probably had at least an ace (if not a king) and that I would probably have a 25% chance of busting out fourth. Thats why i thought after that folding might be a better option, but then I thought that I was crazy. So I wanted to get other perspectives.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think even Aces have something like a 18-19% chance of losing to a random hand.

You were right to call this on the bubble. This sets you up very well to try and win if you survive the hand.

perhaps if the short stack is short enough a fold is correct, but depending on who's pushing I might call no matter how short the short stack is (and in some cases because the short stack is so low). This may be wrong, but if you're willing to call with AA no matter what the stacks are, against certain opponents QQ isn't much worse than AA (since they will be pushing any 2 with an extremely short stack in play).

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
This may be wrong, but if you're willing to call with AA no matter what the stacks are, against certain opponents QQ isn't much worse than AA (since they will be pushing any 2 with an extremely short stack in play).

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, that's not quite true, because QQ and KK are always possible to be a 30% dog and even an 80% one (rare, but it happens), and of course QQ can be only a 55% fave to AK. Whereas AA is always at least 78% (and that's against the sooted connectors such as 78s)

[MegaBet]

Don't be results orientated, this is an easy call.

[ QUOTE ]
Unless he's pushing &lt;11%, yes, this is a call.

KJ isn't in this range by the way. (44+, ATo+, A8s+, KQs)

[/ QUOTE ]If the calling range for SB and BB is QQ+, AK (as some have suggested) then SNGPT says it's right for the button to push with 53% of hands and KJo is clearly in that range. Note though, that the push range changes significantly if you add JJ into the calling range, and again if you add TT to the calling range -- the push range is 6% when the calling range is TT+, AK. Also note that the button has more than 10x the BB, so it might be right to try something besides an all-in.

If you make the push range something like 99+,ATo+,KQ+,A8s+ (does that seem a reasonable real life range?) it's not right to push call with QQ.

What kind of real world range would you put on pusher's hand?

[ QUOTE ]
Don't be results orientated, this is an easy call.

[/ QUOTE ]It's the bad results that often get us to thinking. I also thought it was an easy call, but a little playing with push ranges has got me thinking maybe I'm wrong.

[stupidsucker]

I cant say that I am correct, but I call this without much hesitation. The short stack isnt very "short" and the blinds arent that high. Unless you have a good read on the pusher I call this.

I think calling with AK here is worse then QQ. There isnt a feeling like calling with AK and being behind a small pair. I havent done the analysis, so I may be wrong.

It is best to leave results out, but I think your intentions were pure. The reason isnt so much because results make it a "bad beat post", but more because you will get better, honest answers. People are horrible, some WILL give a different answer based on the outcome. So why put it there at all?

[runner4life7]

i know people like to say they fold JJ here but does anyone do that? Maybe I suck but i think folding JJ would be -EV making folding QQ that much more -EV.