6m: Calling down with overcards?

[DavidC]

This is a huge leak for me.

I'll either check through the turn in pos and call a river bet with AQ ui, or I'll bet for a free showdown vs a loose passive, or I'll bet the flop, then check-call to the river with AQ ui, etc...

Basically, I'm going to showdown with my overcards A LOT. Like, every time. And it's costing me a ton of money.

It all started when I was playing HU, and it seemed pretty necessary there against uber-lags. However, it's moved to a staple in my 2/4 full ring game in short-handed pots and into my 0.5/1 6-max game, and has been costing me maybe $12-20/hr at the 2/4 tables and obviously less than that at the 0.5/1's.

(This also includes stuff like middle pair with a questionable kicker, bottom pair, etc.)

I want this to stop (and I will stop it). So, where do you guys choose to call down / bet for a free showdown / call a river donk, etc.? Where do you show down your overcards against resistance?

--Dave.

[milesdyson]

too general of a question. it's dependent on the opponent, the board, and the size of the pot.

the opponent: does he go to showdown a lot? will he bet a very weak made hand on the river if you check behind on the turn heads up? will he peel the flop with no pair, no draw? will he bluff the river? have you seen him check/call, check/call, bet?

the board: is it likely to have hit the opponent? are there draws out, and how many (this also has to do with your opponent's likely hand range)? do you have more than overcard outs, and how many do you usually have?

the pot size: is the value of the river bluff if you check behind on the turn worth letting your opponent have a free look at the river? are you ahead often enough on the turn to risk the extra big bet to protect your hand?

[DavidC]

Thanks for the response Miles... this looks like an awesome place to start.

[Dunno]

post some hands where u call down. its alot harder to just make up senarios. u will get better respons and better advises.

[jaxUp]

David, tiltaholic was watching me tonight and pointed out this very thing to me. I have been thinking about it a lot and here is what I have discovered that led me to this line.

I discovered (obviously it already existed, but I was unaware of it) a great line in 6max wherein you check behind on the turn with a strong draw but little to no intention of showing down UI. This way we make 2 BB when we hit (they almost always bet the river) and lose 0 when we miss. However, I was straying too far from this scenario in my play and began to become predictable and check the turn anytime I missed a hand. It was making me too easy to play against, and surely cost me a few hundred dollars these last couple of days. I have come to realize that this kind of a play is not only related to your SD strength and the strength of your draw, but perhaps more importantly to the board texture.

Consider the following 2 hands:

you open-raise from CO with K9s, folded to BB who calls.

Flop comes 23Jr, giving you a BDFD and an OC
Either he bets, you raise and he calls, or he checks, you bet, he calls. Either line has some merit, and doesn't particularly reveal too much about his hand (many players will donk any low flop)

Now the turn comes down a Q completing the rainbow. Here we have virtually no SD value and a draw to 7 outs, so you might want to check behind on the turn and raise a favourable river. However, what we haven't considered so far is the fold equity that we have. And I think that's a problem that a lot of (relatively) new 6max players, are not used to their opponents showing aggression (or even calling the flop) and then folding on the turn. This Q is a particularly scary card, because it is definitely in your range, and will usually be another OC to the pair the opposition has (if they even have a pair). So a bet here is often going to pick up the pot against a hand like A high or T2.

Alternatively, consider the same pf action (same holding)

the flop comes down 237r
flop action leaves you as last aggressor

now the turn comes down an 8, completing the rainbow.

What does he have to be scared of? He knows both of his cards are probably live here, and he may have picked up a gutshot or something as well. The point is, on a board like this, A high will often call the turn bet, and so will a hand like JT, both of which we're not real happy about (with K high we'd like to take it right now). But betting is pointless...we're getting called far too often for
it to be profitable. Instead, this is a time when we should be more apt to check behind, and see what happens on river. Hopefully I can put something slightly more coherent together on this topic in the next few days. Reply here with any questions. I know I haven't been exceptionaly clear, or fully explained my reasoning, but I think the essential logic is there.

My point is this: When it comes to plays like this, you need to learn a whole new criteria of reading the board. When you first started out, you learned how to tell what hands were possible, and what you had. Well, now it's time to learn what's likely to fold, what's the right time to put in that turn bet, and what's the right time to check and reevaluate on the river. More to come in the following days.

[jaxUp]

I realize that I didn't answer your question exactly, but I promise you it's leading to an answer eventually. Also, I thought it would be fun to have you read an essay-ish post, since you force me to read so many /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[DCWildcat]

heart the river aggression stat

[bottomset]

I used to have this problem, back when I was playing 1/2 6max, 2/4 .. it really took me a while to get a good balance, and also my handreading has improved a ton since then, which really helps the situation

I feel I have a ton to say about the subject, but without a decent starting point feel I would be rambling on, are you mainly having trouble with OOP, and is it pots where you were the only aggressor preflop, is it when you are donkbet into .. I guess I want to know what aspect of OC play you are struggling the most with, then I can try to tackle the problem

here's an idea pick a recent session of yours .. play through it, but after each flop, pause and go through all the possible draws on the board, and estimate how a LP, LAG, TAG would play the various draws, including which draws are unlikely given preflop action .. get an idea for which boards are conductive to bluffing, basically just get a feel for what kind of hands could be out there

[jaxUp]

[ QUOTE ]
without a decent starting point feel I would be rambling on

[/ QUOTE ]

see my post.