Interesting pre-flop scenario against a 2+2'er I respect

[Luv2DriveTT]

Live 4/8 game. A very good TAG (known 2+2'er I respect) is to my left. We are friendly-competitive when we go head-to-head; sometimes its a silly pissing match, sometimes its 100% legit. In my last three blind steal attempts he always defended, but I won all three; first two times he folded by the turn but showed me what he held (AT and T2), the third we went to showdown when I had a straight scooping a huge pot for a HU hand.

I'm not paying attention because I'm preparing to leave when the table folds to me. I look down and see the button in front of me so I raise with K7o. Villain 3-bets, SB folds and BB goes all in for 3.5 bets. For those of you who were paying attention - yes, the action doesn't make sense if I was on the button. The button just looked like it was in front of me, I was actually in the CO. Since I no longer had position on the TAG, I was forced to ponder a different course of action.

With the above in consideration, what is the hero's next step? Would you call the 1 and 1/2 raises? Would you complete to make it 4 bets? Would you fold? How does the presence of the big blind factor into your decisions? Please provide reasoning as well as an answer.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[newhizzle]

i call, after already putting in 2 bets, i dont think we should be folding for 1.5 more, i think with the BB all in, we dont have to worry about button capping without a hand or taking this from us on the flop, button could be 3-betting a wide range of hands against you personally, and BB just looks like he wants to get all his chips in, on the flop i check it down and fold if i dont hit, if BB had chips left, id fold to the cap

is this a 4 or 5 bet cap? i also think that affects your descision, if button has the ability to put in another full bet, i think its a lot closer, but i still think i call

[elindauer]

Fold. First, you have a shitty hand and two players have shown a fair amount of strength. Second, you have little in the way of implied odds because the protected pot will elliminate all doubt in your opponents mind that you are betting / raising hoping to draw a fold.

Getting only, what, 9:1.5 on crap crap offsuit, I think a fold is your best option.

good luck.
Eric

ps If the blinds are defending a lot, and at least one of them is a pretty good player, you probably should not steal with K7, button or not.

[bigalt]

I'd actually like to dump this one. I'd say your pot equity for the main pot is somewhere around 20-25%-ish, so by folding you'd be giving up about 1 BB.

I think you're losing more than that, on average, starting from scratch out of position against a hand that he'd like to three-bet with and also knows how to play.

You got caught with your blind steal, just give it up.

edit: i'm stealing with this hand no matter how often they're defending. you've got a king (that's almost as good as an ace!) and have position on them!

[Luv2DriveTT]

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is this a 4 or 5 bet cap? i also think that affects your descision, if button has the ability to put in another full bet, i think its a lot closer, but i still think i call

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Button has the ability to complete to a 4 bet cap.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[toss]

I'd fold expecting Button to complete to a 4-bet cap should we call.

[brettbrettr]

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interesting pre-flop scenario against a 2+2'er I respect

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You don't recpect all of us?

I think I'd probably fold here. You don't have much of a hand against an all-in player and a guy who is about to cap.

[Luv2DriveTT]

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interesting pre-flop scenario against a 2+2'er I respect

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You don't recpect all of us?

I think I'd probably fold here. You don't have much of a hand against an all-in player and a guy who is about to cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not all, but I do respect you /images/graemlins/smile.gif

RESULTS: I folded. The respected villain disagreed with my actions, my response was jokingly "call me Tommy".

Alternate option: What if the BB only called, knowing that she only had 1/2 a small bet remaining in her stack? Would you still fold?

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

Without the surrounding circumstances, I would fold.

Given the circumstances including: (1) the game was close to breaking up, (2) BB's hand was basically random since he played almost any two cards from the BB when raised, and (3) the gamesmanship between you and the villain, I think you have to call.

[Note: I was at the game with TT -- I was not the respected 2+2er to TT's left. I was the disrespected 2+2er across the table]

[W. Deranged]

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[Note: I was at the game with TT -- I was not the respected 2+2er to TT's left. I was the disrespected 2+2er across the table]

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to reply: against Chuck, cap that [censored]... but then I realized that TT's description of his opponent meant that the button could not possibly have been Chuck.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

In all seriousness, I think folding here pre-flop for the 1.5 is fine. This hand is going to be very tough to play even if you do hit something, particularly as the pot is completely protected by the all-in guy and hence you might have trouble getting value out of your hand even when you do hit.

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

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[Note: I was at the game with TT -- I was not the respected 2+2er to TT's left. I was the disrespected 2+2er across the table]

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to reply: against Chuck, cap that [censored]... but then I realized that TT's description of his opponent meant that the button could not possibly have been Chuck.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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Thanks.

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In all seriousness, I think folding here pre-flop for the 1.5 is fine. This hand is going to be very tough to play even if you do hit something, particularly as the pot is completely protected by the all-in guy and hence you might have trouble getting value out of your hand even when you do hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was sitting two seats to the BB's left and he frequently flashed us his cards when we were not in the action. In the BB, I specifically recall him calling a raise with hands like 85o and J6o. I don't know if he was drunk, tired or what -- but he had absolutely no easily recognizable standards for staying in a hand. Now I don't know if TT realized how random his hand could be, but his all-in raise means absolutely nothing to me. Yes, he removes some equity from each player, but I don't know if I concede this pot unless I am fairly certain that the 2+2 villain has a legit hand.

Folding is certainly fine. I think calling is better.

Question: If the reckless BB folds instead of raises all-in, are you more or less likely to call?

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


[Note: I was at the game with TT -- I was not the respected 2+2er to TT's left. I was the disrespected 2+2er across the table]

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to reply: against Chuck, cap that [censored]... but then I realized that TT's description of his opponent meant that the button could not possibly have been Chuck.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks.

[ QUOTE ]
In all seriousness, I think folding here pre-flop for the 1.5 is fine. This hand is going to be very tough to play even if you do hit something, particularly as the pot is completely protected by the all-in guy and hence you might have trouble getting value out of your hand even when you do hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was sitting two seats to the BB's left and he frequently flashed us his cards when we were not in the action. In the BB, I specifically recall him calling a raise with hands like 85o and J6o. I don't know if he was drunk, tired or what -- but he had absolutely no easily recognizable standards for staying in a hand. Now I don't know if TT realized how random his hand could be, but his all-in raise means absolutely nothing to me. Yes, he removes some equity from each player, but I don't know if I concede this pot unless I am fairly certain that the 2+2 villain has a legit hand.

Folding is certainly fine. I think calling is better.

Question: If the reckless BB folds instead of raises all-in, are you more or less likely to call?

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If BB folds this is an automatic call.

Our hand loses a bunch of value when the pot gets three-handed, particularly as it increases our likelihood of domination. We're getting like 6-1 on a call here so it is essentially equivalent to deciding whether we should call a raise out of the big blind closing the action in a likely three-way pot. Usually I'm folding K7o there, as at least one if not both of the others are likely to have legit or even very good hands. The situation here seems pretty analogous just slightly magnified.

[Luv2DriveTT]

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If BB folds this is an automatic call.

Our hand loses a bunch of value when the pot gets three-handed, particularly as it increases our likelihood of domination. We're getting like 6-1 on a call here so it is essentially equivalent to deciding whether we should call a raise out of the big blind closing the action in a likely three-way pot. Usually I'm folding K7o there, as at least one if not both of the others are likely to have legit or even very good hands. The situation here seems pretty analogous just slightly magnified.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed, I would insta-call with K7o heads up. The fact that the BB calls, and is all in changes the scenario a lot.

1) We now have to beat 2 players, not 1. BB is free rolling for the pot, villain and I are now playing for the side pot.

2) I am playing out of position

3) Villain could possibly complete the 1/2 bet.

On the other hand, the pot is laying me 6:1.

PS for Chuck : You are thinking of the wrong player. BB is Suzanne, she won't necessarily go all-in with any two cards, she at least has a high card, most likely a K or an A.