rate this big blind play

[dirty_dan]

online 3/6

Folded to loose LP who raises. All folded to me in big blind with T9d. I call.

FLOP: 2c Tc 8s
I check raise, he calls.

TURN: Jd
I bet, LP raises, I 3 bet, he calls.

RIVER: 8h
I check & call

[rkiray]

I like this play. I think I would have played it the same way.

[Your Mom]

I actually like this play because if you are behind, you avoid being raised (Although most players probably wouldn't raise in a LL online game with an overpair.) and it induces a bluff. I'd play it this way most of the time, but would bet the river against one of those passive river types that appear occassionally online.

[ddcpr]

What's your thinking on the 3 bet on the turn? You must think there's a chance he may lay it down? If he 4 bets do you fold?
I would just call the raise on the turn, then if another T or my straight hits, I'd bet or checkraise depending on the opponent.

[Don Quixote]

I am probably wrong; but if I am, will someone please tell me so and also why. Ok, here goes, I would not have called the raise in the BB. The ranking for your cards are too low IMO to go heads up with even a loose raiser. Even loose raisers can have good cards. You wont get proper odds for flush or straight draw with only one other player.

Maybe I am missing something here. Even if you thought it was a steal attempt on his part, I am still not sure that the call was justified. Someone please enlighten me. Thanks.

Don Quixote

[Your Mom]

I would defend with 109s against just about anyone. Otherwise, they'll raise every time and show a profit.

[Clarkmeister]

Bet the river or check-fold.

[Homer]

Care to elaborate?

[Clarkmeister]

You bet the river because you may, once in a million years, get a worse hand to call, and primarily because you may get a better hand to fold.

You check-fold because its virtually impossible for 95% of players to even consider betting a worse hand on the river, and your shows of strength on the flop and turn make it inconceivable that someone is bluffing at you. Now some specific opponents that may not be the case, but the vast majority of the time it is.

Check-calling has to be, on average, the worst of his 3 available options IMO.

[GuyOnTilt]

I'd fold this one preflop. Obviously a drawing hand, and you aren't ever going to have your odds to draw heads up plus you're out of position.

Since you did decide to call, I like your play until the turn. You should call his raise, but definitely not 3-bet it. His mere call on the 3-bet probably shows he's afraid of JT, and has an overpair or hit his AJ, KJ, QJ, on the turn. The only reason you see the river after his turn raise is to improve. After you don't, you should check-fold.

I don't know what hands you are expecting to beat here with your river call, since AKc, AQc, or KQc would've 3-bet the flop and I can't see a pocket pair 9's or lower raising the turn and betting the river. His flop call and turn raise screams overpair or overcard who hit their Jack.

Of course you COULD save yourself all this headache by simply folding T9s preflop in the BB headsup and out of position 100% of the time.

[Clarkmeister]

"I'd fold this one preflop. Obviously a drawing hand, and you aren't ever going to have your odds to draw heads up plus you're out of position"

Its a drawing hand alright. Your draw is to a pair. That's all you need the vast majority of the time.

"Of course you COULD save yourself all this headache by simply folding T9s preflop in the BB headsup and out of position 100% of the time. "

This is poker suicide as aggressive as people are with their blind steals today. What more do you want in order to defend your blind?

[GuyOnTilt]

Its a drawing hand alright. Your draw is to a pair.

I don't draw to hands that I can't be aggressive and confident with if/when I hit them. A pair of 9's or 10's with no kicker isn't a strong enough hand for me to be either.

What more do you want in order to defend your blind?

AA KK QQ JJ TT 99 88 AK AQ AJ AT KQ KJ KT QJ. That'd be my list against most opponents out of position and heads up. Suited or offsuit wouldn't matter.

[slavic]

A stealer I normally rate at 20 or better on the cards. T9 is a 21 so I push it. A pair of Tens is worth going to war with. If he had AA or KK well he got his moneys worth.

[anatta]

After your show of strength on the flop, he raises you. Why are you 3 betting when you are almost certainly behind? He could have a marginal hand and be trying for a free showdown, but in the vast majority of cases, a turn raise means he can beat second pair. Yes, you have a st8 draw, but this just means you have to call a 4 bet. He could also be bluffing, in which case, he will fold to your three bet, but bet the river for you if you check. Perhaps I am missing something, can you explain the 3-bet?

[dirty_dan]

I think I'm ahead on the flop. With an overpair, 2pair or a set he could have reraised me, especially with the flush draw there. If he puts me on top pair because of my flop raise, then the overcard on the turn is a good place for him to try to push me off my hand. If I just call his raise I'm committed to call a bet on the river and showdown my tens (assuming I don't river the straight).

On the turn I can be ahead, in which case I'd want to fold him or charge him to draw out as the board is a bit scary.

I can be slightly behind, and I want to reraise and say "I don't care that you have AJ, I can beat it" and possibly get him to fold.

Or I can be way behind, and he'd cap it and I could call one more bet to try to hit my straight on the river and fold if I don't.

If the river brings my straight, or if I'm ahead on the turn, then the added bets from my turn reraise might encourage him to call one last bet with a losing hand.

I didn't think I'd be able to push him off a hand that beats me on the river so I check-called.

He had 86d and took it.

[SoBeDude]

Head's up his top pair is probably the best hand. His raise is a raise for value.

You don't usually need a straight to in a hand heads up, and waiting to fill one before you raise is a huge mistake.

-Scott

[SoBeDude]

You're thinking is geared to a multi-way pot situation, not a heads-up situation.

Head's up is a very different place, and plays by a VERY different set of rules.

Common scenario:
A guy tries a steal raise from CO/Button. BB calls and often reraises in defense. BB bets out, thief raises with nothing in an attempt to continue the steal. BB reraises with nothing continuing the defense...

In this VERY COMMON scenario a pair is a strong hand. Worthy of going to war with. Top Pair especially. Often Ace-high wins a heads-up hand.

Playing heads up against a probable steal-attempt your way, is the same as standing up and passing out your chips.

-Scott

[anatta]

"With an overpair, 2pair or a set he could have reraised me, especially with the flush draw there"

Wouldn't he just as likely see if the flush got there and lower the boom on the turn?

"If I just call his raise I'm committed to call a bet on the river and showdown my tens (assuming I don't river the straight)."

Why is this so bad? You have second pair with a weak kicker. Instead you three-bet and called his bet on the river and had a showdown with your tens! I agree with three betting on the turn if you can laydown on the river as Clarkmeister advocates. Your three bet then is a try to a free showdown out of position, which only works if you can fold if he bets on the end.

"I can be slightly behind, and I want to reraise and say "I don't care that you have AJ, I can beat it" and possibly get him to fold."

A three-bet semi-bluff needs to work about 15-20% (estimate) of the time here to show a profit. Is he really folding a bigger hand? Isn't it much more likely he will 4 bet rather than fold a bigger hand? I think you are charging yourself quite a bit to draw to at the most 13 outs.

That leaves the case where you are ahead and trying to fold him or charge him to draw out. I agree if you are ahead, you should usually three bet here, unless he is way behind and he will continue to bluff the river. I don't think you are ahead that often with second pair when you get raised on the turn.

[dirty_dan]

I agree that the river call wasn't the best play. When the 8 paired I mentally said "crap" since I there were a few hands with an 8 in them that I thought he could have had. I considered fold but ended up making the call because I think he could have played 99 or T9 the way he did. He could also have been overplaying the club draw and tried to fold me with a last chance river bet. I was getting 11-1 odds on the call so I only have to be ahead 9% of the time to make the call.

And, I admit it, I wanted to see what the guy had.

[GuyOnTilt]

Head's up is a very different place, and plays by a VERY different set of rules.

Thank you, I realize.

Common scenario:
A guy tries a steal raise from CO/Button. BB calls and often reraises in defense. BB bets out, thief raises with nothing in an attempt to continue the steal. BB reraises with nothing continuing the defense...

Yes, I do know that this is commonplace in low limit and I see it happen all the time. It's usually between 2 males who get into a pissing match with the whole male ego/pride thing playing the main role. HOWEVER, the fact that it is common does not make it correct play for either player.

Playing heads up against a probable steal-attempt your way, is the same as standing up and passing out your chips.

Wrong. You are dead wrong. Folding, as we all know, is not -EV. It involves no "passing out of your chips." Calling an openraise out of position heads-up with T9s, however, IS -EV.

I understand that some people are just looking for any excuse to defend their blinds against a possible steal-raise, but I'm not one of those people. And albeit an attempt at a steal, my opponent still has to have a decent starting two to give it a shot.

I think people get much too defensive in the blinds against open-raises in LP. I see more chips blown out of the blinds short-handed than anywhere else. So, go ahead and berate my tight blind play and say I'm "giving away" my chips by folding (which is incorrect), but (unlike most players) I'm a long-term winner from both blinds for just that reason.

[Clarkmeister]

"Head's up is a very different place, and plays by a VERY different set of rules"

'Thank you, I realize.'

I don't think you do. If you aren't comfortable going to war with top pair-any kicker headsup then you really really don't realize.


"Playing heads up against a probable steal-attempt your way, is the same as standing up and passing out your chips. "

'Wrong. You are dead wrong. Folding, as we all know, is not -EV. It involves no "passing out of your chips." Calling an openraise out of position heads-up with T9s, however, IS -EV.'

Allowing me to raise your blind EVERY time (as your range of defending hands allows me to) regardless of holding is EXACTLY the same as passing out chips. Calling a steal raise from the BB with 9Ts is not negative EV assuming even remotely competant postflop play.

" understand that some people are just looking for any excuse to defend their blinds against a possible steal-raise, but I'm not one of those people. And albeit an attempt at a steal, my opponent still has to have a decent starting two to give it a shot. "

You need to re-read the blind defense and shorthanded sections of HPFAP since you don't understand why it is necessary to defend with hands like 9Ts. Also, players do NOT have to have decent starting cards, particularly once they notice your absurdly tight defense standards. Heck, they can literally raise you every time, and the times you defend they can just check-fold if they miss. Your strategy is so exploitable its sick.

"(unlike most players) I'm a long-term winner from both blinds for just that reason. "

No player is a winner from both blinds. The fact that you don't understand this simple fact should let you know that you need to revisit your gameplan.

gl

[CrackerZack]

If you're a winner from the blinds you should be playing the highest stakes of any game any where any time. It defies poker logic. You're one of only 2 people to ante on the round, in terrible position, yet win money from that position. Write a book. If I believed it, I'd buy it. I'd be willing to bet, if you sit there, and I sit 2 to your right, and you only defend with only those hands, I will raise everytime play my hands blind and you will have lost money at the end of the day in this situation.

[CrackerZack]

Good explanation. Yeah...what he says. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif