gym-spotting

[gamblore99]

I hate when I ask someone to spot me and they have no idea what they are doing. For all those new to the gym. This is how you generally spot someone unless they tell you otherwise.

1. You and the person being spotted should discuss what the excercise is, if he needs a liftoff, where he wants support, how many reps he is going for, and when he will usually need help.

2. When the person is starting to struggle, and cannot complete the motion, your job is to apply gentle help so that he may just complete the rep. DO NOT start to do the excercise for him. The rep should take considerably more time than the reps where he was capable of doing it himself, and he should be pushing/pulling in full force to get this one done.

3. The person being spotted may want help with the more than the last rep. Maybe the last 2 or 3.

Ok. that is all

I dont care if I am "in exile" or not, this story is too good...after this i wont post here any more censored...just mid/high...anyways......


2 years ago, Im benching, thinking Im tough. I work out in a gym with some hyoooge dudes (mainly competive powerlifters/bodybuilders/firefighters etc), its mainly a hardcore gym, and there are no lady members. I load up 315, which at the time was near my 3 rep max, two guys were working out next to me, and one asks I need a spot, I say no thanks, but if I do Ill give you a holler, he says: cool, np. I get under the bar do two reps, get the 3rd stuck on my chest. I ask the guy for a little lift off....I hear him murmer something to his buddy, most likely "watch this"....he then proceeds to tea bag me...I swear to god, he stood over my face, and basically tea bagged me (with his pants on thank god), while his buddy busts out laughing....he helped me get the bar up, and I was like wtf...but I of course couldnt stop laughing either, as it was a decent gag.

[cookie]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate when I ask someone to spot me and they have no idea what they are doing. For all those new to the gym. This is how you generally spot someone unless they tell you otherwise.

1. You and the person being spotted should discuss what the excercise is, if he needs a liftoff, where he wants support, how many reps he is going for, and when he will usually need help.

2. When the person is starting to struggle, and cannot complete the motion, your job is to apply gentle help so that he may just complete the rep. DO NOT start to do the excercise for him. The rep should take considerably more time than the reps where he was capable of doing it himself, and he should be pushing/pulling in full force to get this one done.

3. The person being spotted may want help with the more than the last rep. Maybe the last 2 or 3.

Ok. that is all

[/ QUOTE ]
You are sooo wrong.

This part is ok.
[ QUOTE ]
I hate when I ask someone to spot me and they have no idea what they are doing. For all those new to the gym. This is how you generally spot someone unless they tell you otherwise.

1. You and the person being spotted should discuss what the excercise is, if he needs a liftoff, where he wants support, how many reps he is going for, and when he will usually need help.


[/ QUOTE ]

But then comes this:
[ QUOTE ]
2. When the person is starting to struggle, and cannot complete the motion, your job is to apply gentle help so that he may just complete the rep. DO NOT start to do the excercise for him. The rep should take considerably more time than the reps where he was capable of doing it himself, and he should be pushing/pulling in full force to get this one done.

3. The person being spotted may want help with the more than the last rep. Maybe the last 2 or 3.


[/ QUOTE ]
The spotter should take if you cant lift it, and IMO only let you struggle for a longer time when you are trying to make a new 1 rep PR

Forced reps just isnt the way to train anything other than ones ego. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
The spotter should take if you cant lift it, and IMO only let you struggle for a longer time when you are trying to make a new 1 rep PR

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree slightly. It's very situational, but generally I do NOT want help if I'm struggling slightly.

If you're able to do all 5 reps with no effort at all, you're lifting far less weight than you should be. It is very possible (and common!) to be lifting an appropriate weight and having your tempo slow down towards the end of the set.

That, however, doesn't mean that I need someone to come hulking in and start doing BB rows with my bar while I'm trying to finish my set.

I need a spotter to keep me from getting pinned under the bar and dying. Slowing down on the 4th rep as I push through the halfway point isn't pinned & dying.

When I spot, I apply just enough pressure to get the bar moving. The only time you take it is if you're sure the guy can't complete the rep without hurting himself (or complete it at all).

On a similar note, don't you hate it when you're spotting someone and you DO need to take the bar because he clearly can't lift the weight, yet he wants to do more reps? That happened to me once. I forced him to rack and he got mad when I told him I wasn't going to screw up my back doing the exercise for him (so I went and screwed up my back deadlifting instead... *sigh*)

[gamblore99]

Cookie,
When trying to gain mass and doing hypertrophy workouts the gains are achieved by cummulative exhaustion through sets. By having the spotter lower the training demand for the last rep or two, you can exhaust the muscles more, and recruit more motor groups. This is more gains. For other workouts it may not be appropriate, but there are definite workout programs where having someone assist you on the last 2-3 is ok.

[Isura]

Good post. The worst is the people that help too much and just yank the bar up. Just takes thet punch out of a good workout.

[cookie]

[ QUOTE ]
Cookie,
When trying to gain mass and doing hypertrophy workouts the gains are achieved by cummulative exhaustion through sets. By having the spotter lower the training demand for the last rep or two, you can exhaust the muscles more, and recruit more motor groups. This is more gains. For other workouts it may not be appropriate, but there are definite workout programs where having someone assist you on the last 2-3 is ok.

[/ QUOTE ]
2-3 forced reps is not good for u, is that in every set for u? that u have 2-3 forced reps?
You will tear ur body appart more than u'll train that way.

[gamblore99]

[ QUOTE ]
2-3 forced reps is not good for u, is that in every set for u? that u have 2-3 forced reps?
You will tear ur body appart more than u'll train that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. This is usually only for the last 1-2 sets.

[cookie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The spotter should take if you cant lift it, and IMO only let you struggle for a longer time when you are trying to make a new 1 rep PR

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree slightly. It's very situational, but generally I do NOT want help if I'm struggling slightly.

<font color="red"> In ur generel training it is ok to struggle to some point, but not so much that u tear ur body, and not in every set </font>
If you're able to do all 5 reps with no effort at all, you're lifting far less weight than you should be. It is very possible (and common!) to be lifting an appropriate weight and having your tempo slow down towards the end of the set.

<font color="red"> Yes yes tempo often goes down. Lets make this about benchpress since it'll be easier to explain.
Yes, the five reps can be way to easy = not good. But 5x5 reps where 2-3 is forced in every set is plain old stupid </font>

That, however, doesn't mean that I need someone to come hulking in and start doing BB rows with my bar while I'm trying to finish my set.

I need a spotter to keep me from getting pinned under the bar and dying. <font color="red"> Exactly, he can catch it if something happens </font> Slowing down on the 4th rep as I push through the halfway point isn't pinned &amp; dying.

When I spot, I apply just enough pressure to get the bar moving. <font color="red"> Im against this for the reasons stated </font> The only time you take it is if you're sure the guy can't complete the rep without hurting himself (or complete it at all).

On a similar note, don't you hate it when you're spotting someone and you DO need to take the bar because he clearly can't lift the weight, yet he wants to do more reps? That happened to me once. I forced him to rack and he got mad when I told him I wasn't going to screw up my back doing the exercise for him (so I went and screwed up my back deadlifting instead... *sigh*)
<font color="red"> Deadlift doesnt screw anything /images/graemlins/smile.gif Look at Benedict he just did 425 kg for a new overall World record (outside federations) </font>

[/ QUOTE ]
From this weekends MR. Olympia, Gene trying to bench over 1000 pounds (not with IPF certified equipment though...)
http://media.putfile.com/BenchPress25

Somewhere in here I probably should mention my views mainly are powerlifting influenced
[ QUOTE ]
If you're able to do all 5 reps with no effort at all, you're lifting far less weight than you should be. It is very possible (and common!) to be lifting an appropriate weight and having your tempo slow down towards the end of the set.

[/ QUOTE ] This can be wrong for first week of a progression cyclus, or more commenly dynamic effort days, again powerlifting (strenght) related.

[cookie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2-3 forced reps is not good for u, is that in every set for u? that u have 2-3 forced reps?
You will tear ur body appart more than u'll train that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. This is usually only for the last 1-2 sets.

[/ QUOTE ]Hows ur training for bench for instance? 5x5xyyypuonds or???

Do you get to set of forced in every exercise u make during a workout?

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate when I ask someone to spot me and they have no idea what they are doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I hate it when people ask me to spot, because I have not idea what I'm doing. I always refuse, too.

--Dave.

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
Deadlift doesnt screw anything /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It does when you haven't done it in a while and do too much weight to start off. Back has been screwed for 2 weeks and barely improving. Haven't been able to squat or anything. I can forget about golf too.

Gonna have to see a doc for it. Damn. I hate doctors (professionally... not as people in general /images/graemlins/smile.gif).

[gamblore99]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2-3 forced reps is not good for u, is that in every set for u? that u have 2-3 forced reps?
You will tear ur body appart more than u'll train that way.

[/ QUOTE ]


No. This is usually only for the last 1-2 sets.

[/ QUOTE ]Hows ur training for bench for instance? 5x5xyyypuonds or???

Do you get to set of forced in every exercise u make during a workout?

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually do the first 1-2 by myself, maybe have some help on the second. The 3rd probably only last rep, maybe 2, and the 4th 1-3 depending on how I am feeling. Whenever it is more than help with 1 extra rep it is because the first assisted rep was pretty much all me.
THis is just a reflection, it may be more or less. Need to start keeping a journal again.

[cookie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Deadlift doesnt screw anything /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It does when you haven't done it in a while and do too much weight to start off. Back has been screwed for 2 weeks and barely improving. Haven't been able to squat or anything. I can forget about golf too.

Gonna have to see a doc for it. Damn. I hate doctors (professionally... not as people in general /images/graemlins/smile.gif).

[/ QUOTE ]
Either you did go too heavy on the first day or ur teqnique has flaws.
2 weeks is to much for it to just be muscle soreness, I think around 5 days is the max. And we are talking meeting deadlift grinded out for very long time...

[cookie]

[quote
I usually do the first 1-2 by myself, maybe have some help on the second. The 3rd probably only last rep, maybe 2, and the 4th 1-3 depending on how I am feeling. Whenever it is more than help with 1 extra rep it is because the first assisted rep was pretty much all me.
THis is just a reflection, it may be more or less. Need to start keeping a journal again.

[/ QUOTE ]
I still think that's to much.

And a training journal would be good, progression is 1 of the much important things in lifting weights.

For instance, my training atm:
Kyle's Russian Bench Routine

Monday Wed. Friday
Bench 70% 3x8 Bench 75% 3x8 Bench 80% 3x8
Incline 70% 3x8 Incline 75% 3x8 Incline 80% 3x8
Powerclean 70% 3x5 Bench and Incline 4x12 (50%) Powerclean 75% 3x5
**All days Squat x5-4-3
Monday Wed Friday
Bench 75% 4x6 Bench 80% 4x6 Bench 85% 4x6
Incline 75% 4x6 Incline 80% 4x6 Incline 85% 4x6
Powerclean 75% 3x5 Powerclean 80% 3x5 Powerlcean 80% 3x5
**All days Squat x5-4-3
Monday Wed. Friday
Bench 5(70%)4(75%)3(80%)2(85%)1(90%) Bench 5(75%)4(80%)3(85%)2(90%)1(95%) Bench5(80%)4(85%)3(90%)2(95%)1(100%)
Incline (same as bench) Incline (same as bench) Incline (same as bench)
Powerclean 5-4-3-2 Bench and Incline 4x6 (50%) Powerclean 5-4-3-2
**Monday/Friday Squat x5-4-3
Monday Wed. Friday
Bench 5(75%)4(80%)3(85%)2(90%)1(95%) Bench5(80%)4(85%)3(90%)2(95%)1(100%) Bench5(85%)4(90%)3(95%)2(100%)1-Max
Incline (Same ad Bench) Incline (Same as Bench) Incline (Same as Bench)
PowerClean 5-4-3-2-1 Powerclean 5-4-3-2-1 Powerclean 5-4-3-2-1
**Monday/Friday Squat x5-4-3

hmmmmm copy pasting no good I think.

I do squatting deferently from the above, but it is the bench cyclus which are important.

But that program will push u far, but not too far

[flatline]

Are you saying you bench and squat 3x a week? If you are trying to gain strength, this is terrible. You are probably seeing gains, but nowhere close to optimal. You shouldn't be doing either excercise more than once per week.

[gamblore99]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying you bench and squat 3x a week? If you are trying to gain strength, this is terrible. You are probably seeing gains, but nowhere close to optimal. You shouldn't be doing either excercise more than once per week.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are your sources on this? The book I mostly use, serious strength training by Tudor Bompa says a muscle should be excercised 2 times a week. The muscles grow better if they are constantly adapting and such. Also, most trainers at my university with 2-3 years of kin background and a really big interest in strength training agree with this.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying you bench and squat 3x a week? If you are trying to gain strength, this is terrible. You are probably seeing gains, but nowhere close to optimal. You shouldn't be doing either excercise more than once per week.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's idiotic.

[diebitter]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying you bench and squat 3x a week? If you are trying to gain strength, this is terrible. You are probably seeing gains, but nowhere close to optimal. You shouldn't be doing either excercise more than once per week.

[/ QUOTE ]
Stupid comment. There's no muscle-building (or even toning) routine that is optimal at once a week.

x3 is the optimal rate with a day's rest between, though for very heavy squatting, x2 is probably better, with at least 2 day's rest (3 days is better) between.

And in my experience, nothing build muscle-mass all over faster than heavy squatting.

[flatline]

Well, it seems like you've done your research, so I'm sorry if I came off like an ass in my last post. I usually abide by the stuff I read on WBB (http://wannabebig.com), which generally preaches lifting at maximum intensity about once a week. From my personal experience, I have found that lifting 3x a week will not gain any more than just one hard session a week. But as long as you're putting thought into your routine and not just thinking "if I lift more I will grow faster", I'm sure you're doing alright.

[jaydub]

[ QUOTE ]
From my personal experience, I have found that lifting 3x a week will not gain any more than just one hard session a week.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you need to take better / more drugs.

[jaydub]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying you bench and squat 3x a week? If you are trying to gain strength, this is terrible. You are probably seeing gains, but nowhere close to optimal. You shouldn't be doing either excercise more than once per week.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are your sources on this? The book I mostly use, serious strength training by Tudor Bompa says a muscle should be excercised 2 times a week. The muscles grow better if they are constantly adapting and such. Also, most trainers at my university with 2-3 years of kin background and a really big interest in strength training agree with this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolute statements are stupid in this context. The answer is to train as much as possible without overtraining. That number is highly variable across not only individuals but also time periods for a single individual.

[gamblore99]

[ QUOTE ]
The answer is to train as much as possible without overtraining. That number is highly variable across not only individuals but also time periods for a single individual.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. This is what I should have said. Though in general, if you are anything less than an elite body builder, 2 times a week is pretty much optimal, 3 if you decrease the sets to a very low level.

[jaydub]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The answer is to train as much as possible without overtraining. That number is highly variable across not only individuals but also time periods for a single individual.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. This is what I should have said. Though in general, if you are anything less than an elite body builder, 2 times a week is pretty much optimal, 3 if you decrease the sets to a very low level.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you agree with me and then immediately contradict yourself by declaring a number as pretty much optimal except for "elite bodybuilders"?

[gamblore99]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The answer is to train as much as possible without overtraining. That number is highly variable across not only individuals but also time periods for a single individual.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. This is what I should have said. Though in general, if you are anything less than an elite body builder, 2 times a week is pretty much optimal, 3 if you decrease the sets to a very low level.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you agree with me and then immediately contradict yourself by declaring a number as pretty much optimal except for "elite bodybuilders"?

[/ QUOTE ]

I shouldn't have quoted the whole thing. I only meant to agree with this part

[ QUOTE ]
The answer is to train as much as possible without overtraining

[/ QUOTE ]

Not this
[ QUOTE ]
That number is highly variable across not only individuals but also time periods for a single individual.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think there is much variation in recovery time between most people. People who are more experienced and whose bodies are more conditioned for strength training can do more intense workouts, but most people are going to be doing 2 workouts a week for optimum achievements.

Make more sense?

[jaydub]

[ QUOTE ]

I shouldn't have quoted the whole thing. I only meant to agree with this part

[ QUOTE ]
The answer is to train as much as possible without overtraining

[/ QUOTE ]

Not this
[ QUOTE ]
That number is highly variable across not only individuals but also time periods for a single individual.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think there is much variation in recovery time between most people. People who are more experienced and whose bodies are more conditioned for strength training can do more intense workouts, but most people are going to be doing 2 workouts a week for optimum achievements.

Make more sense?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, your statement does. I do not agree with it but your logic is clear.

[ripdog]

I was working out in North Seattle 10+ years ago and some dude asked a guy to spot him. He started to struggle and the spotter started helping him out, then the lifter starts freaking out and bitching the spotter out for doing it all wrong. The spotter said "Spot your f*****g self then!", let go of the bar and walked away. The weight went back down to his chest and he struggled for several minutes trying to get out from underneath the bar. Nobody in the place went to his rescue. That's what you get when you're a dick.

[gamblore99]

[ QUOTE ]
I was working out in North Seattle 10+ years ago and some dude asked a guy to spot him. He started to struggle and the spotter started helping him out, then the lifter starts freaking out and bitching the spotter out for doing it all wrong. The spotter said "Spot your f*****g self then!", let go of the bar and walked away. The weight went back down to his chest and he struggled for several minutes trying to get out from underneath the bar. Nobody in the place went to his rescue. That's what you get when you're a dick.

[/ QUOTE ]

That doesn't like a good way to deal with a bad spotter. If it is someone who looks new to the gym and confused, then I just tell kindley tell them what a spot should be. If it is some guy who looks like he has been there a while and take offence I either tell him how I want MY spot, or get someone else. This is done after the spot.

[cookie]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, it seems like you've done your research, so I'm sorry if I came off like an ass in my last post. I usually abide by the stuff I read on WBB (http://wannabebig.com), which generally preaches lifting at maximum intensity about once a week. From my personal experience, I have found that lifting 3x a week will not gain any more than just one hard session a week. But as long as you're putting thought into your routine and not just thinking "if I lift more I will grow faster", I'm sure you're doing alright.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes I bench 3-times a week. Squat two times a week and deadlifts once a week.
But without any forced reps!
Alot of strenght people suggest 3 times a week bench training, Kyle for instance who has made this cycle.
But more known Russian Boris Sheiko uses 3-times a week benching in his programs.
Read ruggedmag or elitefts instead.

"more than just one hard session a week"
K, do you then have a dymanic effort day?

Anyway, if people read the bench cycle, they would see that i is like 3 days a week
week 1: 3x8x70%, 3x8x75%, 3x8x80%
week 2: 3x6x75%, 3x6x80%, 3x6x85% ...

[cookie]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying you bench and squat 3x a week? If you are trying to gain strength, this is terrible. You are probably seeing gains, but nowhere close to optimal. You shouldn't be doing either excercise more than once per week.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do u think Brian Siders or Gene Kelly (think thats his name) has gotten so far by benching ones a week?

[cookie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
From my personal experience, I have found that lifting 3x a week will not gain any more than just one hard session a week.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you need to take better / more drugs.

[/ QUOTE ]
Tell me u are joking, otherwise YSSCKY. Not for doing drugs, but for suggesting that others should.

[gamblore99]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying you bench and squat 3x a week? If you are trying to gain strength, this is terrible. You are probably seeing gains, but nowhere close to optimal. You shouldn't be doing either excercise more than once per week.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do u think Brian Siders or Gene Kelly (think thats his name) has gotten so far by benching ones a week?

[/ QUOTE ]


Cookie, I agree with you that exercising a muscle more than once a week is optimal. But looking at these guys whom I am guessing are top strength trainers or body builders and replicating there program is not a good idea. There bodies are much higher adapted and can train more intensely and recover much faster. You should design a program for your level of fitness and training ability.

[cookie]

[ QUOTE ]

Cookie, I agree with you that exercising a muscle more than once a week is optimal. But looking at these guys whom I am guessing are top strength trainers or body builders and replicating there program is not a good idea. There bodies are much higher adapted and can train more intensely and recover much faster. You should design a program for your level of fitness and training ability.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, ofcourse, but my point was that people like them never use forced reps, and neither should u, actually forced reps makes more sense if u train 1-2 times a week.

This Q should have been asked a long time ago:
How long have u been training?

Im training mainly for competative powerlifting.

[gamblore99]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Cookie, I agree with you that exercising a muscle more than once a week is optimal. But looking at these guys whom I am guessing are top strength trainers or body builders and replicating there program is not a good idea. There bodies are much higher adapted and can train more intensely and recover much faster. You should design a program for your level of fitness and training ability.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, ofcourse, but my point was that people like them never use forced reps, and neither should u, actually forced reps makes more sense if u train 1-2 times a week.

This Q should have been asked a long time ago:
How long have u been training?

Im training mainly for competative powerlifting.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been training on of for about 3 years, and have started training more seriously for about a year. Strength training is big hobby for me, and I think I enjoy the science of it more than the actual training. I think because you are doing powerlifting you don't have to completely exhaust your muscles like in a hypertrophy workout. Just to make sure, powerlifting is mostly maximum strenght training? I have researched that a bit, but seeing as I don't plan on starting that phase of my program until another 2-3 months I don't know only the basics of it.

edited to add: In regards to the drugs comments, for max strength training supplements are supposedly essential. By this I mean creatine, and other stuff. But mostly creatine.

[cookie]

[ QUOTE ]

I have been training on of for about 3 years, and have started training more seriously for about a year. Strength training is big hobby for me, and I think I enjoy the science of it more than the actual training. I think because you are doing powerlifting you don't have to completely exhaust your muscles like in a hypertrophy workout. Just to make sure, powerlifting is mostly maximum strenght training? I have researched that a bit, but seeing as I don't plan on starting that phase of my program until another 2-3 months I don't know only the basics of it.

edited to add: In regards to the drugs comments, for max strength training supplements are supposedly essential. By this I mean creatine, and other stuff. But mostly creatine.

[/ QUOTE ]
Creatine isnt a drug (except in France /images/graemlins/wink.gif), its a suppliment

Stuff u should read, yes all the articles:

http://www.ruggedmag.com/index.php

http://www.elitefts.com/articles/Current-Articles/default.asp
Out of curiosity, what do u mean by: "and other stuff"

[edfurlong]

Would I be out of line if I said that everyone that competes in powerlifting or body building uses steroids?

I mean 90% of my college AAAAAAAAAA football team juiced.

[jaydub]

[ QUOTE ]
Would I be out of line if I said that everyone that competes in powerlifting or body building uses steroids?

I mean 90% of my college AAAAAAAAAA football team juiced.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, not if you put professional or elite in that statement which is why I always laugh when some twit talks about how they are using XXXX's program. Even if they had access to the drugs used, which go far beyond basic cycles of steroids in breadth and complexity, they don't have the genetics required.

[cookie]

[ QUOTE ]
Would I be out of line if I said that everyone that competes in powerlifting or body building uses steroids?

I mean 90% of my college AAAAAAAAAA football team juiced.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is juicing illegal in college football?
In IPF juicing etc is illegal, Im not sure about WPF though.

So to ur question:
"Would I be out of line if I said that everyone that competes in powerlifting or body building uses steroids?
"
Yes, u would be out of line.

[cookie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Would I be out of line if I said that everyone that competes in powerlifting or body building uses steroids?

I mean 90% of my college AAAAAAAAAA football team juiced.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, not if you put professional or elite in that statement which is why I always laugh when some twit talks about how they are using XXXX's program. Even if they had access to the drugs used, which go far beyond basic cycles of steroids in breadth and complexity, they don't have the genetics required.

[/ QUOTE ]
The fun thing here is that u have no idea who Boris Sheiko is...

[jaydub]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Would I be out of line if I said that everyone that competes in powerlifting or body building uses steroids?

I mean 90% of my college AAAAAAAAAA football team juiced.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, not if you put professional or elite in that statement which is why I always laugh when some twit talks about how they are using XXXX's program. Even if they had access to the drugs used, which go far beyond basic cycles of steroids in breadth and complexity, they don't have the genetics required.

[/ QUOTE ]
The fun thing here is that u have no idea who Boris Sheiko is...

[/ QUOTE ]

Russian coach. Not everything is about you, I was more referring to the typical muscle and fiction workouts.

[gamblore99]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I have been training on of for about 3 years, and have started training more seriously for about a year. Strength training is big hobby for me, and I think I enjoy the science of it more than the actual training. I think because you are doing powerlifting you don't have to completely exhaust your muscles like in a hypertrophy workout. Just to make sure, powerlifting is mostly maximum strenght training? I have researched that a bit, but seeing as I don't plan on starting that phase of my program until another 2-3 months I don't know only the basics of it.

edited to add: In regards to the drugs comments, for max strength training supplements are supposedly essential. By this I mean creatine, and other stuff. But mostly creatine.

[/ QUOTE ]
Creatine isnt a drug (except in France /images/graemlins/wink.gif), its a suppliment

Stuff u should read, yes all the articles:

http://www.ruggedmag.com/index.php

http://www.elitefts.com/articles/Current-Articles/default.asp
Out of curiosity, what do u mean by: "and other stuff"

[/ QUOTE ]

I looked through the articles briefly and at some of the authors. One thing I didn't really like about the articles was that they didn't seem very scientific. The biographies for most of these writers were "xxx is really really strong". the fact that xxx can bench a lot of weight does not mean knows the most about strength training. Maybe I didn't look long enough but I was not a big fan.

For the other stuff, in terms of supplements I don't have the book on me with the specific recommendations, but other supplements suggested were joint support, testoboost, renew, multivitamin, and certain types of protein. There were others too...

[cookie]

[ QUOTE ]

Russian coach. Not everything is about you, I was more referring to the typical muscle and fiction workouts.

[/ QUOTE ]
"Not everything is about you"
Its not? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Might have been to prejudging here, sorry.
Will u agree with me that forced reps are used by top bodybuilders, and those use drugs, therefore this method shouldnt be used by people training without drugs, because the body cant heal naturally between passes if u use a high number of forced reps?

[cookie]

[ QUOTE ]

For the other stuff, in terms of supplements I don't have the book on me with the specific recommendations, but other supplements suggested were joint support, testoboost, renew, multivitamin, and certain types of protein. There were others too...

[/ QUOTE ]
testoboost doesnt sound to legal to me, but dunno.

I think multivamin, C-vitamin, creatine, protein powder, essential fattage is the way to go with suppliments.

joint support, testoboost, renew, - I have no clue what this is, mb due to the fact im danish and there might be a language barrier...

[cookie]

[ QUOTE ]
I looked through the articles briefly and at some of the authors. One thing I didn't really like about the articles was that they didn't seem very scientific. The biographies for most of these writers were "xxx is really really strong". the fact that xxx can bench a lot of weight does not mean knows the most about strength training. Maybe I didn't look long enough but I was not a big fan.

[/ QUOTE ]
U are right, most of my reading on this stuff is in danish, so I cant really direct u directly to the articles I find most interesting.

[jaydub]

[ QUOTE ]
"Not everything is about you"
Its not? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Might have been to prejudging here, sorry.
Will u agree with me that forced reps are used by top bodybuilders, and those use drugs, therefore this method shouldnt be used by people training without drugs, because the body cant heal naturally between passes if u use a high number of forced reps?

[/ QUOTE ]

So let me follow your logic,
group X takes steroids
group X does B and it works
group Y doesn't take steroids
Thus B won't work for group Y

Something like that? Sorry can't agree there.

I will say this about forced reps (eccentrics):

"Most routines leave the muscular system underworked -- "Overtraining" is almost always neural or endocrine in nature - it is almost impossible to fully tax the muscle without first overrtraining the other two. The quickest way to overtrain: CNS = HIT style training. Endocrine system = long workouts (1+ hours). Muscular system = eccentrics. "

Bonus points if you know who said that, hint he's not Russian.

[gamblore99]

testo boost is supposed naturally increase your production of testosterone.

[cookie]

[ QUOTE ]

So let me follow your logic,
group X takes steroids
group X does B and it works
group Y doesn't take steroids
Thus B won't work for group Y

Something like that? Sorry can't agree there.
<font color="red"> No, more like, it work for group X, therefore it will work for group Y = false argument </font>
I will say this about forced reps (eccentrics):

"Most routines leave the muscular system underworked -- "Overtraining" is almost always neural or endocrine in nature - it is almost impossible to fully tax the muscle without first overrtraining the other two. The quickest way to overtrain: CNS = HIT style training. Endocrine system = long workouts (1+ hours). Muscular system = eccentrics. "

Bonus points if you know who said that, hint he's not Russian. <font color="red"> Gimme a little time here... </font>

[/ QUOTE ]
Forced reps isnt eccentric training
Forced rep = u press as much as u can, spotter helps a little
Eccentric = U perform the eccentric phase of the lift "slowly" the spotter basicly lifts the weight to start position and u perform another "rep"

[jaydub]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

So let me follow your logic,
group X takes steroids
group X does B and it works
group Y doesn't take steroids
Thus B won't work for group Y

Something like that? Sorry can't agree there.
<font color="red"> No, more like, it work for group X, therefore it will work for group Y = false argument </font>
I will say this about forced reps (eccentrics):

"Most routines leave the muscular system underworked -- "Overtraining" is almost always neural or endocrine in nature - it is almost impossible to fully tax the muscle without first overrtraining the other two. The quickest way to overtrain: CNS = HIT style training. Endocrine system = long workouts (1+ hours). Muscular system = eccentrics. "

Bonus points if you know who said that, hint he's not Russian. <font color="red"> Gimme a little time here... </font>

[/ QUOTE ]
Forced reps isnt eccentric training
Forced rep = u press as much as u can, spotter helps a little
Eccentric = U perform the eccentric phase of the lift "slowly" the spotter basicly lifts the weight to start position and u perform another "rep"

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you were the one making the absolute statement of shouldn't. I don't recall seeing anyone taking the position that one should which you claim to be contradicting.

You are talking about going to failure during training then I guess. I would not agree with an absolute statement such as "non steroid using lifters should not go to failure during day to day training".

[cookie]

I dont talk about going to failure, I talk about forced reps, going over failure

Par Deus

[jaydub]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont talk about going to failure, I talk about forced reps, going over failure

Par Deus

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I am confused at your goal, is it not to do the negative (or eccentric) portion of the lift after you are exhausted and unable to complete the concentric portion? Because if it is not to go to complete failure on the concentric portion of the exercise, then it must either be to work the eccentric or some other goal I have missed.

[cookie]

We are discussing wether or not to do forced reps.

You start talking about eccentric training.

Eccentric training and forced reps isnt the same.

[jaydub]

[ QUOTE ]
We are discussing wether or not to do forced reps.

You start talking about eccentric training.

Eccentric training and forced reps isnt the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well what is your goal when going past the point where you can perform the concentric portion of the lift and require assistance from the spotter? Why would one choose to do that?

[cookie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We are discussing wether or not to do forced reps.

You start talking about eccentric training.

Eccentric training and forced reps isnt the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well what is your goal when going past the point where you can perform the concentric portion of the lift and require assistance from the spotter? Why would one choose to do that?

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont do forced reps

For eccentric training I would do like 110% of 1 rm

[JihadOnTheRiver]

This turned into a 2-person thread and is getting old.

[cookie]

[ QUOTE ]
This turned into a 2-person thread and is getting old.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thx for contributing then

[jaydub]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This turned into a 2-person thread and is getting old.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thx for contributing then

[/ QUOTE ]

Word, don't you have to go start a post about throwing down with an empowered black in 7-11, fcking a manly woman, or buying a bathrobe?

[jaydub]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We are discussing wether or not to do forced reps.

You start talking about eccentric training.

Eccentric training and forced reps isnt the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well what is your goal when going past the point where you can perform the concentric portion of the lift and require assistance from the spotter? Why would one choose to do that?

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont do forced reps

For eccentric training I would do like 110% of 1 rm

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly and my point is that doing eccentrics as 110% of 1RM will have very similar effects to doing forced reps after reaching failure. This is because at the time of the forced reps, your 1RM is lower than the weight used. The idea here for both is that though you cannot complete the concentric portion of the excercise, significant benefits can be reaped on the eccentric portion. Now does it make sense why I lump the two together for most purposes?

[cookie]

[ QUOTE ]

Exactly and my point is that doing eccentrics as 110% of 1RM will have very similar effects to doing forced reps after reaching failure. This is because at the time of the forced reps, your 1RM is lower than the weight used. The idea here for both is that though you cannot complete the concentric portion of the excercise, significant benefits can be reaped on the eccentric portion. Now does it make sense why I lump the two together for most purposes?

[/ QUOTE ]
Somewhat, but no, the OP stated he is doing forced in every training sesion. One shouldnt do ecentric training every time in the gym.

I see how they corospond somewhat, but I dont see it having same effect as true ecentric training.

One of the reasons for eccentric training also is to work with a weight above 1 rm.

A bit of reasoning for not using forced reps
(Not exactly about that, but if one read it closely they'll see why):
http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/ls12.htm

[ddubois]

Why don't people just use weight machines and avoid all the issues with spotting, chest-crushing, etc?

[gamblore99]

[ QUOTE ]
Why don't people just use weight machines and avoid all the issues with spotting, chest-crushing, etc?

[/ QUOTE ]

when you work with free weights, you must use a lot of stabilizer muscles. On weight machines you don't. Big difference.

[flatline]

[ QUOTE ]
Why don't people just use weight machines and avoid all the issues with spotting, chest-crushing, etc?

[/ QUOTE ]

Free-weights build muscle better because you don't just use the main muscle, you also use all the muscles around it to stablize and keep proper form. I this is one thing everyone can agree on.

[gamblore99]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Exactly and my point is that doing eccentrics as 110% of 1RM will have very similar effects to doing forced reps after reaching failure. This is because at the time of the forced reps, your 1RM is lower than the weight used. The idea here for both is that though you cannot complete the concentric portion of the excercise, significant benefits can be reaped on the eccentric portion. Now does it make sense why I lump the two together for most purposes?

[/ QUOTE ]
Somewhat, but no, the OP stated he is doing forced in every training sesion. One shouldnt do ecentric training every time in the gym.

I see how they corospond somewhat, but I dont see it having same effect as true ecentric training.

One of the reasons for eccentric training also is to work with a weight above 1 rm.

A bit of reasoning for not using forced reps
(Not exactly about that, but if one read it closely they'll see why):
http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/ls12.htm

[/ QUOTE ]

Cookie. That article seems ok. I don't know much about football. As to its relevant in our discussion working to failure is not meant to increase power, it is meant to increase muscle size.

[cookie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Exactly and my point is that doing eccentrics as 110% of 1RM will have very similar effects to doing forced reps after reaching failure. This is because at the time of the forced reps, your 1RM is lower than the weight used. The idea here for both is that though you cannot complete the concentric portion of the excercise, significant benefits can be reaped on the eccentric portion. Now does it make sense why I lump the two together for most purposes?

[/ QUOTE ]
Somewhat, but no, the OP stated he is doing forced in every training sesion. One shouldnt do ecentric training every time in the gym.

I see how they corospond somewhat, but I dont see it having same effect as true ecentric training.

One of the reasons for eccentric training also is to work with a weight above 1 rm.

A bit of reasoning for not using forced reps
(Not exactly about that, but if one read it closely they'll see why):
http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/ls12.htm

[/ QUOTE ]

Cookie. That article seems ok. I don't know much about football. As to its relevant in our discussion working to failure is not meant to increase power, it is meant to increase muscle size.

[/ QUOTE ]
The two things are somewhat connected, strenght and mass follows each other somewhat.

But IMO the main part of gaining mass is ones diet...

But as I stated earlier, Im a powerlifter, thus influenced by that in my views of good training.

I think I forget that we are discussing why to do/not do forced reps...

Im not sure I got ur opinion, are u for or against, and why.

-----------
To someguy asking about machines, read link.

[gamblore99]

whether or not you should work to failure depends on what you're goal is. If it is hypertrophy then you should work to failure. If it is power or max strength, then I think (am not 100% sure)that you would not work to failure.