Can I possibly call? Can I possibly fold? 1/2 live

[dtbog]

1/2, $200 max, Turning Stone. I have the table covered.

SB in this hand is playing below his bankroll; he's a regular at Turning Stone (most of the dealers and regulars seem to know him) and he's moved to the table from the $5/10 uncapped NL game in the other corner of the room. Listening to him talk, he definitely knows the game and has played for a long time -- whether or not he's always playing his A game is suspect, because I've seen him make a couple of donkey-esque plays... but he seems to know what he's doing in general.

(For some totally irrelevant information, we're cramped at a stud table, because this is Turning Stone.)

I look at 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif in L-MP, and call a $10 open from the player (~$115) directly to my right. SB villain (~$220) calls, 3 to the flop:

(~$30); 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif

SB checks, MP bets $20. I decide to call rather than reopen the betting to the shortstack, SB calls.

Turn (~$90): 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif

SB checks, MP bets $25, (now I know he has a flush and I'm calling on the boat draw), I call, SB calls.

River (~$165): J /images/graemlins/club.gif

Yay, I have a boat.

SB checks again. MP pushes for $62, I call hoping for an overcall...

... and SB checkraises all-in for $100 more.

Can he have any hand besides QJ?

[jkkkk]

Always raising that flop..

Regardless I fold that river probably.

[sourbeaver]

If he has QJ, he doesn't know what he's doing.

Calling a raise (from a shortstack, no less) from the SB with that crap hand...
Flat calling with what is probably 4 outs on the flop and turn to a short stack who doesn't nearly offer the odds...

That said, he's gotta have a boat in that spot to push over a push and a caller if he's anything of a poker player.

[dtbog]

[ QUOTE ]
That said, he's gotta have a boat in that spot to push over a push and a caller if he's anything of a poker player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.. that's what I thought, and I have the worst possible boat.

whats wrong with SB having A/images/graemlins/spade.gifX/images/graemlins/spade.gif? Unless he's on tilt as you suggested, he wouldn't have called a raise with QJ as a pervious response said. I push, expecting a call from first villain, and expect to win 50% of the time (I'd have a rebuy ready).

[dtbog]

[ QUOTE ]
whats wrong with SB having A/images/graemlins/spade.gifX/images/graemlins/spade.gif?

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, I'm pretty sure the shortstack has a flush.

Secondly, why would he c/r all-in on that river with a flush? That'd be pretty atrocious.

because he isn't in it for the money? who cares if the other opponent has a flush, I've been overflushed twice that I can remember when I flopped it with small SC

[j0wlev]

Don't you think Mp might have something like K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif and got pot stuck on the turn? SB might have a hand like A /images/graemlins/spade.gif Jx or Qx.

Think it's silly to put both opponents on the flush and boat. SB could have flopped a flush with a hand like 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif and be waiting to stack MP, MP's turn bet looks like post-oak bluff, like I think I maybe have the best hand maybe I'll win this pot with a weak turn bet with my weak overpair and 2nd nut draw.

I call this all day long, it's live 1/2 people will go to the felt with TPTK all day long, if he has QJ you're gonna wanna stay in the game. Calling a raise OOP with a weak ass QJ.

[BobboFitos]

http://www.booksamillion.com/bam/covers/0/81/299/222/0812992229_l.gif

[Malachii]

LOL

[Andrew Fletcher]

This might be the best thing I've ever seen.

[dtbog]

LOL.

Seriously, though, is this a standard call? I don't think there are many players that c/r all-in here without a boat... maybe I just give the donks too much credit?

[MTBlue]

The pot is 450 dollars and you have to call 100. If he doesn't have a boat 18% of the time then its right to call. There is no point in this hand where you announced that you had boat except maybe the call on the end. Your line doesn't exude strength. I pay it off and forget about it.

You won't lose lots of cash making this call even if you are wrong everytime b/c this scenario comes up once every gazillion hands.

I see your location is in the claws of variance. I'd look for more routine holes in your game than a possible full house over full house with a three flush on the board.

Hope this helps.

[element00]

Hrm, btdog why would you call for a fullhouse draw hit then fold? If you're calling for the fullhouse draw hit it and push or hit it and call(why call if you're afraid your fullhouse will be no good on river seriously).

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
...I'm calling on the boat draw... Yay, I have a boat.

[/ QUOTE ]You answered your own question.

[dtbog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...I'm calling on the boat draw... Yay, I have a boat.

[/ QUOTE ]You answered your own question.

[/ QUOTE ]

This logic doesn't make sense.

Does this mean that you must get stacked every time you hit your draw, no matter how obvious it is that someone else hit better?

[dtbog]

[ QUOTE ]

The pot is 450 dollars and you have to call 100. If he doesn't have a boat 18% of the time then its right to call. There is no point in this hand where you announced that you had boat except maybe the call on the end. Your line doesn't exude strength. I pay it off and forget about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Hope this helps.

[/ QUOTE ]

This helps.


[ QUOTE ]

I see your location is in the claws of variance. I'd look for more routine holes in your game than a possible full house over full house with a three flush on the board.

Hope this helps.

[/ QUOTE ]

This, however, does not help. I think it's condescending.

If I have a major leak -- I don't know, TPTK, folding overpairs, overvaluing weak draws, whatever it might be -- why would I continue posting hands where I do something dumb and lose my stack?

I thought this hand warranted discussion because villain's c/r all-in on the river line seemed only like QJ. From the opinions in this thread, I see that many do not come to that conclusion... so this was helpful to me. I'm glad I posted this hand. I thought it was interesting.

For the record, my location is actually the result of an OOT thread which has nothing to do with results.

[dtbog]

I'm a donk.

I muck my boat, villain tables KJo without a spade... for middle pair on the flop and turn... and a useless rivered trips.

Shortstack had ATs for the flush, and takes down the pot.

My assessment of villain's competence goes way way down.

(As does my assessment of my own /images/graemlins/crazy.gif)

[BigBiceps]

Definitely call the river. He could have a flush or trips or whatever, and just be happy that a 1 card flush did not get him. Sometimes you will lose, but I think that would be less than half the time at 1/2 live NL.

P.S. I would have folded preflop with 33 to a 5 big blind raise in the first place.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a donk.

I muck my boat, villain tables KJo without a spade... for middle pair on the flop and turn... and a useless rivered trips.

Shortstack had ATs for the flush, and takes down the pot.

My assessment of villain's competence goes way way down.

(As does my assessment of my own /images/graemlins/crazy.gif)

[/ QUOTE ]

NOOOOOOOOOOO DAVEEEEEEEEEEEE

cold fact is everytime I have a strong hand I feel Im supposed to not fold it, and I make waaaay too many calls when I'm beaten, but even all that said, please dont ever fold in such a spot again.

[4_2_it]

Grunching here. I think you have to make, at worst, a crying call. If you put one villain on QJ and the other on the flush, then you should have folded on the turn because you only have 4 clean outs. As you played it, call the river. You would have saved yourself some grief by raising the flop to get heads up with the flush. Never play a set this weak weak.

I would rather raise the flop and fold to a push than limp all the way through and have even less information to call a push on the river.

[Bco1/75]

If I am the SB with QJ and I hit Two pair on a three flush board, I am not going to keep calling to the river to let someone hit a one card flush or call "hoping" that my two pair is best. At one point wouldn't you have to fire to find out who has the flush or dive out the chasers?

I think it is more likely that the MP has QQ or JJ (didn't he open raise?) and the SB has the flush. It is probally 50/50 that the SB has the flush and the MP has the best hand. You should call the SB $100 on the 50/50 that he has the flush?

[dtbog]

[ QUOTE ]
If you put one villain on QJ and the other on the flush, then you should have folded on the turn because you only have 4 clean outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, definitely, but I didn't put the guy on QJ until he c/r all-in on that river.

Up to that point, he could have had huge range of hands; the river c/r seemed to narrow it down for me.

Obviously I was wrong in this case, but don't you use that general line of thinking a lot?

[dtbog]

[ QUOTE ]
If I am the SB with QJ and I hit Two pair on a three flush board, I am not going to keep calling to the river to let someone hit a one card flush or call "hoping" that my two pair is best.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well herein lies the problem.

If I have QJ, I'm never getting to that river.

If I do get to that river, I probably play it the same way he did...

...but we're not thinking about how you or I will play. We're looking at this villain.

He had KJo, no spade. You or I would never see that river come out with KJo, and we certainly wouldn't c/r all-in with it.

My problem in this hand was giving villain too much credit. If I played this hand against myself and this action somehow happened, I'd instamuck 33 because I knew "I" wouldn't c/r all-in on this river without a boat.

[dtbog]

[ QUOTE ]

cold fact is everytime I have a strong hand I feel Im supposed to not fold it, and I make waaaay too many calls when I'm beaten, but even all that said, please dont ever fold in such a spot again.

[/ QUOTE ]

heheh.

I won't... but as MTblue pointed out in this thread, I shouldn't be worrying about these things right? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Even reading this thread where everyone told me to call, though, I still can't believe that villain could make this play with KJo. I'll call next time because of the pot odds, but I won't like it.

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you put one villain on QJ and the other on the flush, then you should have folded on the turn because you only have 4 clean outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, definitely, but I didn't put the guy on QJ until he c/r all-in on that river.

Up to that point, he could have had huge range of hands; the river c/r seemed to narrow it down for me.

Obviously I was wrong in this case, but don't you use that general line of thinking a lot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely, my first thought would be what cards would I willing to call or push on the river. If your answer was the last 3 or one of the three 6's you fold.

Since you called the turn you I assume you answered the question as I would call if the board pairs, which makes the turn call correct.

If the donk actually played QJ be happy, you will get your stack back and then some. I want my opponents calling large turn bets with only 4 outs. I don't mind paying them off every 11th hand.

[jkkkk]

You are going to see a bigger full house here >82% of the time if SB is not a donk, don't kick yourself for folding.

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll call next time because of the pot odds, but I won't like it, I'll LOVE it.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[dtbog]

[ QUOTE ]
If the donk actually played QJ be happy, you will get your stack back and then some. I want my opponents calling large turn bets with only 4 outs. I don't mind paying them off every 11th hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, yeah.. this guy actually had 0 outs on the turn, let alone 4 /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
You are going to see a bigger full house here >82% of the time if SB is not a donk, don't kick yourself for folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? With that betting pattern? If I flop two pair there I am raising to see if the flush is for real and check folding an unimproved turn. Only if I have a set do I continue on.

You won't see a higher boat from a player unless he is a total donk, in which case you just found a new buddy /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[dtbog]

[ QUOTE ]
You are going to see a bigger full house here >82% of the time if SB is not a donk, don't kick yourself for folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

I most certainly agree -- what I'm actually taking from this thread is that I should look for more compelling evidence that someone is NOT a donk.

In other words, donk until proven innocent. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

What kind of player would you call/fold against here?
...er, in better words, what sort of observations in a relatively short session would convince you that this c/r doesn't mean KJo or the stupidest bluff in the world, but QJ/QQ/quads?

I sometimes think I have someone figured out as not-donk, and then they go and surprise me.

[dtbog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are going to see a bigger full house here >82% of the time if SB is not a donk, don't kick yourself for folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? With that betting pattern? If I flop two pair there I am raising to see if the flush is for real and check folding an unimproved turn. Only if I have a set do I continue on.

You won't see a higher boat from a player unless he is a total donk, in which case you just found a new buddy /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's that simple.

The guy had KJo, so he's obviously not playing optimally.

Just because you would play those hands a certain way doesn't mean that this guy would do the same -- and yes, maybe he's a donk for getting to the river with QJ, but there are donks everywhere. That's why we make money.

Given that I thought this guy was a decent player and he showed me KJo, I'm not going to discount the possibility that I thought he was a decent player and then he showed me QJo.

See what I mean?

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]

In other words, donk until proven innocent. /images/graemlins/smile.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Aren't we all? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I assume most of my 'unrated' opponents are donks to one degree or another until I see soemthing that makes me think otherwise. I will be right far more often than I will be wrong.

As a hand develops, I determine what my optinal draw is and how I will play it when it hits. In this case you hit your optimal draw. Play it out. Just becuase a donk gets out of line is no reason to panic. I admit I would be more worried if a LAG with mad post flop skills pulled that move.

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]

Given that I thought this guy was a decent player and he showed me KJo, I'm not going to discount the possibility that I thought he was a decent player and then he showed me QJo.

See what I mean?

[/ QUOTE ]

I see what you mean, but you are being results-oriented here.

Does your definition of decent player include one who calls a pre-flop raise with QJ OOP? Does a decent player not come out firing with top two pair in a raised pot on a monochrome flop? After a blank turn, does a decent player with top two pair check? I have a much harder time than you putting villain on QJ.

I am not trying to be harsh with you, and I think your read is really what you have to go with in the end. You saw how the hand played out live in real time. I am just trying to open up another line of thinking.

[dtbog]

[ QUOTE ]
I am not trying to be harsh with you, and I think your read is really what you have to go with in the end. You saw how the hand played out live in real time. I am just trying to open up another line of thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't worry, I understand... debating hands like this is what it's all about /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]

Does your definition of decent player include one who calls a pre-flop raise with QJ OOP? Does a decent player not come out firing with top two pair in a raised pot on a monochrome flop? After a blank turn, does a decent player with top two pair check? I have a much harder time than you putting villain on QJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right about all of this -- but the decision by villain which showed the most strength (as well as that which committed his entire stack to the pot) happened on the river.

While calling preflop with QJ is certainly a mistake, calling in this spot preflop with QJs certainly isn't the worst leak I've ever seen. Same with the flop and the turn... he certainly didn't make the *correct* play, but calling with top 2 getting the odds that he did -- while certainly wrong -- is an easy mistake for a villain to make.

When the river comes out, he suddenly check-raises and gets his entire stack in.

It's much easier to believe that he made three smaller mistakes than one huge, extremely low-percentage one.

See what I mean?

The river play wasn't just marginally, reasonably, or standard 'bad play' -- it was downright awful. Even if he puts me on 33 and knows I'll fold, he's bluffing into a dry side pot. That's basic stuff. The shortstack who raised preflop, got called in two places on the flop and turn, and then shoves on this river pretty obviously has KJo beat, and villain is just pissing away chips.

Since this was the most glaring and obvious potential for a mistake in the hand, I chose at the time to assume that he played this part correctly (I think c/r all-in on river is correct with QJ here), rather than the flop/turn.

[jkkkk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are going to see a bigger full house here >82% of the time if SB is not a donk, don't kick yourself for folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

I most certainly agree -- what I'm actually taking from this thread is that I should look for more compelling evidence that someone is NOT a donk.

In other words, donk until proven innocent. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

What kind of player would you call/fold against here?
...er, in better words, what sort of observations in a relatively short session would convince you that this c/r doesn't mean KJo or the stupidest bluff in the world, but QJ/QQ/quads?

I sometimes think I have someone figured out as not-donk, and then they go and surprise me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well it all comes down to the first piece of information that you let out in your original post;

[ QUOTE ]
1/2, $200 max, Turning Stone

[/ QUOTE ]

What is your average 200max turning stone player like? I have no idea.

[jkkkk]

Hmm just read

[ QUOTE ]
he's moved to the table from the $5/10 uncapped NL game

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm folding if I know this and this alone, the 5/10 players must love this guy.

[dtbog]

[ QUOTE ]
What is your average 200max turning stone player like? I have no idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a range. TS has a 100max as well with the same blind structure (and 100max seats are much easier to come by), so the 200 game does generally attract better players than the 100.

However, the game is still juicy enough that I choose it over the 100, so there are a range of donks as well.

I'd say that NL200 at TStone actually compares reasonably well to NL100 on Party (there are many more donks at TS than on NL$200 on PP), whereas the $100 game at TS plays like a Party NL$25.

[4_2_it]

I agree that defining SB's hand is tough. When I first read the hand I thought maybe K/images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif. He knows the all-in probably has the flush. You did not define your hand so you look like you are also chasing the fourth flush card. For some reason, everyone always thinks people are chasing a flush every time two suited cards arrive on the flop.

A solid player might have read you for a missed flush draw and was value betting (well, maybe over betting) his trips. If he knows the main pot is lost why no try to make it up with a nice side pot. No way villain puts you on 33, 66, Jx or QQ, so he might figure his hand is good.

Anyhoo, I think we are arguing on the merits of a 53/47 decision that is not clear-cut and is definitely read dependent.

Hopefully, you eventually took all his chips like a third grade bully loose in a kindergarten playground /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[dtbog]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that defining SB's hand is tough. When I first read the hand I thought maybe K/images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif. He knows the all-in probably has the flush. You did not define your hand so you look like you are also chasing the fourth flush card. For some reason, everyone always thinks people are chasing a flush every time two suited cards arrive on the flop.

A solid player might have read you for a missed flush draw and was value betting (well, maybe over betting) his trips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would I call $60 on the river with a missed flush draw, though? and how could I possibly call his c/r?

This might be my own mental block on 'thinking outside the box', but I just can't conceive of this c/r with any non-boat to be anything less then atrocious.

[ QUOTE ]
Hopefully, you eventually took all his chips like a third grade bully loose in a kindergarten playground /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Heheh.. well, unfortunately, this guy lost all but $100 of his chips to the guy with the flush on this hand, and then he left /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would I call $60 on the river with a missed flush draw, though? and how could I possibly call his c/r?

This might be my own mental block on 'thinking outside the box', but I just can't conceive of this c/r with any non-boat to be anything less then atrocious.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree his play was horrible, but it did get the best hand to fold. How would you play this hand from the flop on with A /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif? If villain was in calling station mode and showing no aggression? Would you put villain on a set chasing a boat or put them on K /images/graemlins/spade.gifx /images/graemlins/diamond.gif?

While I don't like to venture into the mind of a donk, I can imagine the possibility that he thinks this a perfect situation to pull his Gus Hansen impersonation.

[dtbog]

[ QUOTE ]

I agree his play was horrible, but it did get the best hand to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, but that's why this is so bad. It's a dry side pot. He doesn't care if I fold.

The chance that he is ahead of the all-in player with only trips seems miniscule.

The chance that I call his push without having KJo beat is literally 0%.

[kurto]

The difficult thing is knowing that you're against a donkish enough player who would make such an assinine play... Your read makes sense, even though its hard to imagine anyone playing QU that way. At the same time, someone who would make the river play the way he did, might also play a QJ this way....

Anyhoo... I think no matter what, you have to call. The other possibility that went through my mind was he might have been reading the better with a weak flush draw and was slowplaying the nutflush. He doesn't take you into account.

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...I'm calling on the boat draw... Yay, I have a boat.

[/ QUOTE ]You answered your own question.

[/ QUOTE ]This logic doesn't make sense.

[/ QUOTE ]How logical is it making that call on the turn specifically in the hopes that something hits, having it hit and then folding... Seems to me the logical thing to do is not make the turn bet at all, wouldn't you say?[ QUOTE ]

Does this mean that you must get stacked every time you hit your draw, no matter how obvious it is that someone else hit better?

[/ QUOTE ]I was unaware that this even remotely qualified as "obvious."

[dtbog]

[ QUOTE ]

How logical is it making that call on the turn specifically in the hopes that something hits, having it hit and then folding... Seems to me the logical thing to do is not make the turn bet at all, wouldn't you say?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

I was unaware that this even remotely qualified as "obvious."

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying that THIS hand is obvious, I'm saying that your logic is flawed.

If you really need me to come up with an example of a more clear-cut illustration of this, let me know.. but I think you can probably piece it together.

Once again... at the time when I called the turn, SB's hand range seemed wide enough to include many hands besides QJ/JJ/QQ.

To me, the river c/r seemed to narrow his hand range so drastically that he could only have a full house. Clearly I was wrong in this instance, but there are certainly many cases where you need to be willing to admit your previous assumption was wrong and not chase good money with bad.

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying that THIS hand is obvious, I'm saying that your logic is flawed.

[/ QUOTE ]I'm basing my logic on this specific hand and you're missing an important point.

You need to think these things through before you make the call on the turn. You should realize *before* you make that investment what your expectations for the river are and how you will play it when the river reveals itself to be either a) what you wanted or b) not.

So the problem isn't my logic, it's yours when you called a turn bet without a plan. I just assumed that you had your plan since you said you were rooting for someting. Guess you didn't after all...

[scrapperdog]

That Jack was the card you wanted. If you are gonna play a set knowing a person has a flush when you do hit your fullhouse you cant fold it to a 1/3 pot re-raise on the end. If you are gonna fold when a J comes you might as well fold on the flop. You are gonna win this enough times to make the 100$ call on the end. I would estimate you will win at least half the time. This is even more so with 1 person you know has a flush and the other person "making donkey-esque plays".

The key to this hand is your flat call on river. By doing this you are showing weakness and inducing a bluff to have you fold a low flush. Yes the side pot was dry but really the MP could have had top pair top kicker with the ace of spades. You got exactly what you wanted ... dont fall for it against all but really tight players.

[wslee00]

you showed absolutely no strength on either flop or turn - the flush guy does NOT put you on a full house. You can't really put the flush guy on the full house b/c
#1) he probably would have raised or bet that flop w/ a set
#2) you showed no strength during the hand, so he thinks his hand is good. he was HOPING you'd call his all-in. He put you on a lower flush or less.

[dtbog]

[ QUOTE ]
So the problem isn't my logic, it's yours when you called a turn bet without a plan.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is really what you got out of this whole discussion, then you seriously need to go back and reread some posts.

[ericlambi]

I think your fold was bad, if for no other reason than it is a live casino game with morons. The best guys at my local BM could probably not beat PP $50NL, and would make this dumbass play with AJ. But this will make you feel better.

PP NL $100NL. I have a stack of >$300. Villain has a stack of just over $200. I'm in the BB with Q8. A few limpers, I check. Flop comes:

Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif2
/images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet out $4. Two calls. Turn is

8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I check, EP player bets $8. MP folds. I call. Probably could have folded, but EPs bet seemed weak and I wanted to showdown my two pair. River is

Q /images/graemlins/club.gif

EP bets $11, I raise to $30.

He thinks for a while then asks if I have a flush. I tell him to call and find out.

He pushes. I call. EP shows QJ.

I've been gut wrentching over this hand for two weeks. I played it so badly and lost so much money, I'll probably never forget the hand. QJ was the only hand that made sense.

[dtbog]

[ QUOTE ]
you showed absolutely no strength on either flop or turn - the flush guy does NOT put you on a full house.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is really the key here.

I sort of psyched myself into believing that it was "obvious" that shortstack had a flush and I had him beat... but this clearly wasn't the case.

If I thought that villain's hand range for me included anything worse than a high flush or boat, then I need to make this call.

[Ojo_Rojo]

[ QUOTE ]
He thinks for a while then asks if I have a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

9 out of 10 times comments like these mean he's got the nuts.

Ojo_Rojo