Making the transition from no-limit to limit...

[Wubbie075]

Hey everyone, thanks for reading... I've been lurking for months but I hope to begin actively contributing

anyway.. I'm your typical "new" player... started watching on TV and liked it... a friend hosted a tourney and I somehow managed to come in 2nd (basically not knowing a thing besides what common sense told me) and had loads of fun so I figured I'd give the game a shot... Since my first exposure to the game was NL, that's what I began playing... I've been reading voraciously and playing online now for about 3 months... I've had pretty good success playing mostly SnG and the occasional MTT... I've been able to move up from $5.5 to a mix of $22 and $33 SnG's and taken my bankroll from my initial $50 deposit to about $1000...

I don't like the NL cash games... I find it to be WAY too fast with ppl just being super aggressive and going all in on who knows what... so I'd like to get into limit cash games and stick with my NL tourneys...

Here's my dilemma... I have a handle on the strategic concepts and play of hands as well as odds and things of that nature... I understand which hands to play from which positions... I don't mean to imply I am some master or anything.. of course I know I still have alot to learn and that will come with experience and continued research... but I have had alot of difficulty in making the mental transition from NL games to limit... when I have a strong hand I find myself frustrated by the betting limit and not being able to put a good bet out to protect my hand.. and conversely... when I have a more marginal holding I find myself calling (chasing really) way too often cause it's "only another bet" and I know I won't have to face that huge raise that would be coming in an NL game... I've managed in the few times I've played to essentially break even or take a small hit or gain... nothing significant in either direction... but I would say that's just been luck rather than skill... I'll usually be down alot and then catch a good hand and take down a nice pot and then take off from the table...

has anyone else made this "backward" transition from NL to limit? Did you face these same issues, and how did you overcome them? Do I just need to take my lumps and dump some cash making the wrong decisions and let that condition me into making the correct ones I already know I should be making?

thanks for your help

In limit you are trying to squeeze every last bit of value out of your hands. Also, in limit if you think "oh its only another bet" without looking at pot odds, implied odds, and what your opponents hand ranges or likely holdings are, you will be squeezing out many little bits of money. Just like the rake, it adds up - a lot.

Doing well in limit play requires a lot of discipline. My advice would be to play some low limit games, to get the hang of things. Patience is important too. In limit, your aces will get cracked by hands like queen-8, and the guys with those hands sometimes will have correct odds to call every street. Thats just part of the game.

Protecting your hand in Limit is sometimes very hard, or even impossible. Sometimes you need to check the flop, hope the preflop aggressor in late position raises so you can reraise and make people face 2 bets rather than one, or check in late position postflop and raise the turn so people face a bigbet rather than a small one etc etc. You should pick up SSHE as soon as possible, since it's a fantastic book on limit hold 'em, written specifically for low limits.

I started playing limit and still do, so I've never gone from NL to L, but if you already are comfortable with counting outs and odds it's not really all the different.

[vexvelour]

I did this a couple of days ago for the hell of it- for the same reasons. The limit game was a total joke to me. I saw a flop with pretty much any two cards and drew out like a mofo. I somehow became the loose ass player that calls down to the river and draws out against PP with 78o, etc. Amazingly I managed to win a couple $5 pots in .1/.2.

I decided that it will be a recreation game. I think NL keeps me diciplined.

Anyway, if you want to play legit (lol) just have patience and read SSHE and a book called "Internet Texas Holdem" by Matthew Hiliger. It looks cheesy from the cover but came highly reccommended to me (and it's strictly for limit.)

[GrunchCan]

I have a lot of experience in online limit holdem, and recently started studying no-limit holdem. In the meantime I also play some tournies.

All of these games are different enough from each other that you should play just one until you master the basic and intermediate topics and start to really understand poker (which will take much longer than you think). If you try to play limit cash games and no-limit tournies, you'll just get all confused, thinking they are essentially the same.

You say you like no-limit tournies, but not no-limit cash games. Honestly, and don't take this the wrong way, this suggests to me that it's possible that your no-limit game needs a lot of work.

You say you do like limit cash games, so I'd suggest that you start really studying the game. Luckily for you, there is a ton of literature that is excellent on this very subject. There is very little literature on no-limit games, either cash games or tournies.

Get active in the micros forum. You'll get very good advice from there on where to go now. Give up the tournies, and don't worry about no-limit games for now. Focus & study. The money will come.

[bobbyi]

The best thing you can do is to read the limit forums on twoplustwo a lot. This will help you see the thought process that limit players use when analyzing a hand.

[Warren Whitmore]

Hi Wubbie,

The DVD "Secrets of texas limit hold'em" has some good points on that subject.

Don't do it man, STICK TO NL!!

From what I know, limit has a higher variance to winrate ratio

Do you enjoy 30k hand break even stretches?!?

[Wubbie075]

[ QUOTE ]
You say you like no-limit tournies, but not no-limit cash games. Honestly, and don't take this the wrong way, this suggests to me that it's possible that your no-limit game needs a lot of work.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or it's possible that I don't like playing with reckless morons who read super system too many times, think they are Doyle and go all in on any 2 rags hand after hand after hand to hit miracle 2 outters for all my money... I am certainly not the only person in the world who prefers tournament NL to NL cash games... they are different animals and I hardly think it implies anything lacking in my game that I have a preference...

As I said in my initial post, I AM still working on my game.. aren't we all still working on our games? certainly you don't think u have it all figured out do you?

At any rate. I do appreciate the responses, please keep them coming, but I think I was not clear on what I was asking for here. The point of my post was not "how do I learn how to play limit?" It was "how do I make the MENTAL transition from thinking of the game in terms of no limit to thinking in terms of limit?"

Thanks

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
It was "how do I make the MENTAL transition from thinking of the game in terms of no limit to thinking in terms of limit?"


[/ QUOTE ]

Get used to more suckouts on the river. It is harder to protect your hand and in multi-way pots villains often have correct odds to chase draws. This drives my NL personality crazy. I don't mind losing my stack to a river suckout as long as I got my money in as an overwhelming favorite.

Also, while table reading is important it is secondary to playing a more mathematical game. You need to exploit every +EV situation you encounter.

I am not limit expert, but Grunch, Hank and Sheridan's advice when it comes to limit should be heeded.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Or it's possible that I don't like playing with reckless morons who read super system too many times, think they are Doyle and go all in on any 2 rags hand after hand after hand to hit miracle 2 outters for all my money...

[/ QUOTE ]

These are the guys you should want in your game.

While you're learning limit, tighten up preflop until you learn more.

[ QUOTE ]
The point of my post was not "how do I learn how to play limit?" It was "how do I make the MENTAL transition from thinking of the game in terms of no limit to thinking in terms of limit?"


[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to say, but they're right. The answer is to learn how to play the game. Understanding what you have to do differently and why. On all streets. Once you do that, the mental part takes care of itself. Usually.

I'd also echo Bobbyi's response.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I did this a couple of days ago for the hell of it- for the same reasons. The limit game was a total joke to me. I saw a flop with pretty much any two cards and drew out like a mofo. I somehow became the loose ass player that calls down to the river and draws out against PP with 78o, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really hope this way of thinking catches on.

b

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
but I have had alot of difficulty in making the mental transition from NL games to limit... when I have a strong hand I find myself frustrated by the betting limit and not being able to put a good bet out to protect my hand..

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Or it's possible that I don't like playing with reckless morons who read super system too many times, think they are Doyle and go all in on any 2 rags hand after hand after hand to hit miracle 2 outters

[/ QUOTE ]

You have described yourself why NL cash games are easier to win at than limit. I'm not sure why you are so gung-ho to switch. If you think suckouts only happen in NL you haven't played enough limit.

It sounds like you just have a problem with the idea of losing more than a few bucks on a single hand. This is not a good way to think when playing poker.

Not saying limit can't be a profitable game as well, but playing it just to avoid suckouts is not a valid reason IMHO.

[Wubbie075]

I didn't mean to stress the suckouts as much as I did... my point is just that ppl just seem to play with reckless abandon... not calculated aggression... raising ridiculous amounts with ridiculous hands...

I've seen ppl all in with king high called by jack high with a 3 flush and paired board... constantly... I'm not calling (or raising) 10BB pre-flop raises with anything but a premium hand... and even if I do happen to have one, obviously more often than not I miss the flop... maybe you all are right and I don't understand the game... but I just don't think 75% of no-limit hands are supposed to end with someone all-in.. and that's what I see in the cash games online...

maybe the play is better at higher limits... but I don't have the bankroll to support that yet

anyway... since making the original post I've been playing alot of limit games... and so far the results have been good... I know I still have alot to learn... but again, that wasn't really the point of my post... I know the resources are out there and have been taking advantage of them... it was a specific question I had and it was not really addressed (though there were some good points made), but thank you all anyway for your replies...

ultimately, I just had to take time before each decision and force myself to be more disciplined than I had been... stop and ask myself if this is the right play in the right spot... it's going well so far and I'm making mostly the correct decisions... I've actually increased my bankroll 30% in just the last 3 days...

thanks again and good luck to you all

[GrunchCan]

You did take my advice the wrong way, and I'm sorry for that. I wasn't trying to insult you. I was trying to help you. I've been where you are. I used to like MTTs and dislike cash games. But I was terrible at NL then. The fact that I actually took first place in an 1800-person MTT had no bearing on my skill. I was bad, and there is enough of a luck factor in MTTs that a fish like me could get lucky.

Once my cash game started to improve, my MTT game did too. I even started to like both games more. I'm suggesting to you from personal experience that your game needs to improve, and that's why you don't like cash games. Please keep an open mind.

[ QUOTE ]
As I said in my initial post, I AM still working on my game.. aren't we all still working on our games? certainly you don't think u have it all figured out do you?


[/ QUOTE ]

If you had read any of my posts aside from this one, I really don't think you'd ask this question. There are people even in this thread who can attest to the fact that I am very much aware that there are many weaknesses in my game.

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't mean to stress the suckouts as much as I did... my point is just that ppl just seem to play with reckless abandon... not calculated aggression... raising ridiculous amounts with ridiculous hands...

I've seen ppl all in with king high called by jack high with a 3 flush and paired board... constantly... I'm not calling (or raising) 10BB pre-flop raises with anything but a premium hand... and even if I do happen to have one, obviously more often than not I miss the flop... maybe you all are right and I don't understand the game... but I just don't think 75% of no-limit hands are supposed to end with someone all-in.. and that's what I see in the cash games online...

maybe the play is better at higher limits... but I don't have the bankroll to support that yet

anyway... since making the original post I've been playing alot of limit games... and so far the results have been good... I know I still have alot to learn... but again, that wasn't really the point of my post... I know the resources are out there and have been taking advantage of them... it was a specific question I had and it was not really addressed (though there were some good points made), but thank you all anyway for your replies...

ultimately, I just had to take time before each decision and force myself to be more disciplined than I had been... stop and ask myself if this is the right play in the right spot... it's going well so far and I'm making mostly the correct decisions... I've actually increased my bankroll 30% in just the last 3 days...

thanks again and good luck to you all

[/ QUOTE ]

Regardless of which game you choose to play, the first thing you need to do is get a better grasp of where most of the profit for winning players comes from.