Should I have slow-played the set here?

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, MP calls, SB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>...

The board had two connected broadways, the pot was large, and the table was fairly loose, so I opted for a raise. Should I be calling in these places since I'm so far ahead? I'm only worried about someone who weakly played AK pre-flop making a gutshot, and I'm worried about other straight draws... that's it! I will probably win here more than 80% of the time by the river!

[POKhER]

yeh call, keep the field and wait to turn to letrip/protect your hand.

AK = 1.5+1.5(Overcards each) + 3-4for gutshot.
6 to 7 outs needing 7:1 call, your raise gives them 7.5:1 you can't protect.

[milesdyson]

nh

waiting is so ugly here.

edit-
[ QUOTE ]
AK = 1.5+1.5(Overcards each) + 3-4for gutshot.
6 to 7 outs needing 7:1 call, your raise gives them 7.5:1 you can't protect.

[/ QUOTE ]
really? AK has overcard outs?

[Greg J]

I like the raise. Loose players like to call. Let them.

[POKhER]

lol i appreciate the replys to my posts, but can you atleast explain why they dont?

Sure a king gives AT straight and others OESD... but i'd still class them as some outs.

Raise is ok though, i guess its up to the OP what the tables like. Pot is 12SB so nice size to start kicking people out.

P.s. You think the villan with AK puts hero on QQ for set and discounts all his outs?

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
P.s. You think the villan with AK puts hero on QQ for set and discounts all his outs?

[/ QUOTE ]
nope, and since he will likely call the raise with only 4 outs, we make money on it. you think i want AK to fold to my raise here?

I think either raising or calling would be reasonable here. The value of raising is obvious. The value of calling is that it encourages everyone else to think no one has much of anything, and perhaps someone after you will reraise, and if not, SB will still likely bet into you on the turn, allowing you to reraise for the real money.

[POKhER]

Not really sure if you want him to fold or not, But from raising we may make him fold yes, hence i thought calling to keep the field would be better(build a pot rather than eliminate opponents).

ofcourse a 12SB pot is large so we can start killing the field but i think AK may fold.

We dont know if he will or not, but surely raising = more inclined to fold? Then we lose his potential dead money(not forgetting we have ten outs once the turn comes to boat up).

and even if we did want him to fold we dont protect our hand. So if we want him to call, why dont we want others to call with one pair maybe?

[bottomset]

Pokher why do you want to give AK 14/1 odds to draw to his gutshot??

[Aaron W.]

Slowplaying usually sucks. Slowplaying in a large pot ALWAYS sucks.

To make sure it's clear, I am not saying villain has AK here. I'm just saying that's one of the few hands that can outdraw me here.

[nomadtla]

but their slim posibility to out draw you plus your posibility of redrawing to the boat make it foolish to leave bet's on the table the pot is big I like the raise, there's no need to get fancy their probably donking along with AK (or junk) anyways.

I'm not yet convinced by the 'always' part. If the flop were Q52 rainbow, I'm thinking I should call this raise. Unless someone has 43, I am going to win by the river over 90% of the time. I only would have to worry about runner runners, or 2-outter overpairs. If someone raises behind me, I will gladly 3-bet/cap of course. I just don't see any reason to knock out hands like AK, KT, 99, and whatever else people will call with in the modified scenario.

RAISE
Your edge here is so huge, you want as many bets in the middle as possible. You don't want anyone to fold but you want to make as much money from this edge while you have it.

You also want anyone drawing to a GS to pay dearly.

For slowplaying to be correct, the pot would have to be very small or everyone could only make second best hands a lot.

You'd have to ask someone with a better grasp of the game than me BUT there may be a case for calling if you were XX% sure MP would raise.

(taking a grunching stab, not having played 6-max really.)

Why is SB betting flop?? Maybe JTs..eh, maybe has a 5.

With 5 players, a flop relatively uncoordinated, the pot still too small to call the two-outers, and back-doors. Overs are dead meat. Slow play sounds good to me. I wouldn't put villain on such specific hands to figure the monsters that may come. I'm guessing this hand wins &gt;80%, so wait for the big bets.

[PokerSparky]

Not raising the flop is like giving away money. So many hands are going to call 2 cold here.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not yet convinced by the 'always' part. If the flop were Q52 rainbow, I'm thinking I should call this raise. Unless someone has 43, I am going to win by the river over 90% of the time. I only would have to worry about runner runners, or 2-outter overpairs. If someone raises behind me, I will gladly 3-bet/cap of course. I just don't see any reason to knock out hands like AK, KT, 99, and whatever else people will call with in the modified scenario.

[/ QUOTE ]

On a flop that ugly, you've got to realize that most of the hands are going to fold. You can name a handful of them that will call one but not two (99 might be one of them), but most of the time they are either calling two bets or calling none. I'd rather raise and hope to go to war with AQ-KQ or some other hand like that. You also don't want to allow someone to pick up the first card to a runner-runner flush draw or anything like that because that's a redraw to beat you, and they will take a decent chunk out of your big pot if you let them in cheaply.

Read the Theory of Poker chapter on slowplaying (if you own the book -- and you should). Slowplaying in big pots sucks.

When I have QQ and there's a Q on the flop, I generally assume no one else has a Q.

I do have Theory of Poker by Sklansky and have read his chapter on slow-playing. I still find myself disagreeing with the "always" part. He says in a large pot, it's almost always better to make everyone else fold even when you have a strong hand on an uncoordinated board. At least when they fold you have a lock on the large pot. I understand that and agree with it for the most part.

But when you will win over 95% of the time by the river (say only runner-runner straights or flushes beat you - but even then you can boat up and still win), I think it'd be more profitable not to eliminate the field. I know if I had AK on a Q62 board, I'd be folding to a bet-raise in front of me (unless the pot odds were decent). But I'd certainly call if it were only one bet to me. And if the turn gives me a T, J, K, or A, I'd probably call with T/J (depending on pot odds of course) and raise with K/A. In other words, my set would be gaining more bets from others when they make a second best hand.

[ QUOTE ]
I will probably win here more than 80% of the time by the river!

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are answered your own question. Make sure get the most of your set. Make his (possible) draw as expesenive as possible. Bet, Bet, Bet.

[Greg J]

Usually someone will have not have a Q. Sometimes someone will. When they do they are likely to call, especially if they are bad players.

Winning at Poker is about making people make mistakes. You can't make anyone fold, but you CAN make a hand that is drawing very slim, like AK, Qx, a ragged 2 pair, or sometimes a lower set, make a HUGE error by calling (or occasionally raising).

Example from the other day: I have bullets UTG at a loose 6 max table. I raise, all call except button and SB.

Flop is a beautiful but ragged A 9 5r

Checked to me, I bet, fold, raise, cold call, I 3 bet, capped, cold called.

Turn: 2 of bricks (completing the rainbow), check, I bet, get raised, BB cold calls (again!), I 3 bet, and this chick (villian) calls, and BB give it up.

River: 5 -- we go to war. My Aces full takes down her 9s full.

What good would slowplaying have done me here? Give your opponents (BB in this case, who was borderline mentally retarded) the chance to make aggregious errors. That is why you should not slowplay in this kind of situation!

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
When I have QQ and there's a Q on the flop, I generally assume no one else has a Q.

I do have Theory of Poker by Sklansky and have read his chapter on slow-playing. I still find myself disagreeing with the "always" part. He says in a large pot, it's almost always better to make everyone else fold even when you have a strong hand on an uncoordinated board. At least when they fold you have a lock on the large pot. I understand that and agree with it for the most part.

But when you will win over 95% of the time by the river (say only runner-runner straights or flushes beat you - but even then you can boat up and still win), I think it'd be more profitable not to eliminate the field. I know if I had AK on a Q62 board, I'd be folding to a bet-raise in front of me (unless the pot odds were decent). But I'd certainly call if it were only one bet to me. And if the turn gives me a T, J, K, or A, I'd probably call with T/J (depending on pot odds of course) and raise with K/A. In other words, my set would be gaining more bets from others when they make a second best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're gambling with the wrong end of things. You're playing games with those hands which are *BARELY* able to call, and winning something like an extra big bet when they happen to catch the first card and miss the second of their runner-runner draw *WHEN* they have such a backdoor draw. Most of the time, your slowplay fails as everyone bails out of the hand anyway.

As I said (and Greg J had a nice example), you have a hand that does much better going to war. You only need to have villain wake up to a real hand (two pair, smaller set, even bad top pair hands that don't understand they're crushed) one time to make more money than you will slowplaying a dozen times.

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
You only need to have villain wake up to a real hand (two pair, smaller set, even bad top pair hands that don't understand they're crushed) one time to make more money than you will slowplaying a dozen times.

[/ QUOTE ]
Anyone who wants to slowplay too much needs to commit this sentence to memory. Nice one Aaron.