mid pair HU vs BB aggressor [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

detruncate

10-15-2005, 03:49 PM

In the light of day it seems pretty obvious that most of my current issues stem from opening up my game without the requisite post flop skills, so I'm going to break things down and see if I can plug enough leaks to slow down the bleeding. Also wouldn't mind if the deck decided to cooperate a little more, but trying to do something about that seems to require learning another language and tracking down a live chicken (and quite frankly I'm not sure that the chicken wouldn't have the best of it HU).

Anyhoo... I've played about 2 orbits with Villain. I haven't seen him step out of line so far. If he's been paying attention he would have noticed me folding the flop a lot, including a couple check/folds after raising pf. In other words, I've been sending up weak/tight flares. Table has several LAGs but there hasn't been that much aggression either pre or post flop during Villain's orbits.

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: grasshopper is MP2 with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
3 folds, grasshopper raises, 3 folds, 1 folds, BB 3-bets, grasshopper calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB bets, grasshopper ???

This sort of thing happens quite a bit. Not necessarily a blind steal/resteal, but might could be. Seemingly thinking opponent. What do we like?

SlantNGo

10-15-2005, 04:14 PM

Call, and see what the turn brings. I would probably call down if offered favorable turn & river cards.

kapw7

10-15-2005, 04:22 PM

I wouldn't like to fold b/c a. you cannot be that sure (given the pot odds you get) you are behind and b. you have position
So it's raise or call. I think you make money here by 3 ways: Making him fold (obviously), Making him draw with bad odds, let go when it is obvious you are behind.
So one line: Raise the flop and let go if he bets again. If he checks, bet and fold to a C-R.
Calling is not bad as well and you can induce a turn bluff bet sometimes (when you are ahead of course). I think raising the turn would be the best in that case. Our hand is very vulnerable to be outdrawn so we need to push him out.

detruncate

10-15-2005, 05:19 PM

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: grasshopper is MP2 with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
3 folds, grasshopper raises, 3 folds, 1 folds, BB 3-bets, grasshopper calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB bets, grasshopper calls.

I decided to just call since I'm in position and can re-evaluate on the turn.

Turn: (4.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks, grasshopper ???

This is a potentially interesting turn. Anyone have thoughts about what the check means?

lautzutao

10-15-2005, 05:22 PM

I raise this flop. If we ARE ahead, we can't be giving Overcards a cheap turn look. And if we're behind or looking at a big draw we'll get a 3-bet.

lautzutao

10-15-2005, 05:25 PM

This tells me one of 2 things. Either we're WAY behind and the Big C/R is coming, or he has a PP and is afraid of that A, and we're possibly ahead. I check here and call a bet on the river. Might induce a bluff from a sensible player, or get a cheap showdown against a hand you're behind.

digitalis

10-15-2005, 05:39 PM

This is tough situation. You are either WB, or not that far ahead (he has overs).

I think waitng to raise is the best line. Your pot equity goes way up on the turn if he just has overs. If the turn is favorable raise. After that I'm probably folding to further aggression.

digitalis

10-15-2005, 05:44 PM

I think getting C/R'd here is very bad. I check the turn and call the river if it isn't another broadway.

nomadtla

10-15-2005, 06:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think getting C/R'd here is very bad. I check the turn and call the river if it isn't another broadway.

[/ QUOTE ]

what if it's another heart? just thinking out loud.

lerxst337

10-15-2005, 07:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is tough situation. You are either WB, or not that far ahead (he has overs).

I think waitng to raise is the best line. Your pot equity goes way up on the turn if he just has overs. If the turn is favorable raise. After that I'm probably folding to further aggression.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. In addition, when you raise the turn and he calls, you may get a free showdown. Of course, you would for to any more aggression.

Given the way the hand played out, and the way you played it, your opponent is likely to put YOU on overs. Assuming he has you beat, you are getting 4:1 that he will fold to your bluff, 5:2 if you plan to follow through on the river. I would probably wuss out if called on the turn, but certainly you should fire at the turn.

detruncate

10-15-2005, 11:08 PM

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: grasshopper is MP2 with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
3 folds, grasshopper raises, 3 folds, 1 folds, BB 3-bets, grasshopper calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB bets, grasshopper calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks, grasshopper checks.

I might have missed an opportunity to push off a better PP since it's quite likely that I'm on overs when I call the flop. I don't think he checks with an Ace unless he also has a flush draw. He may or may not bet a made flush -- a decent Ace doesn't love giving a free card and I'd have to be a little concerned about being bluff/semibluff c/r'ed by a worse hand so I'm going to have to think about it before I fold. Checking a bigger PP with a flush card seems reasonable.

I have no idea if Villain is thinking any of these things, of course. What I do know is that I can fold to a c/r and might sometimes steal the pot with a bet. On the other hand, I'm not that worried about giving a free card since there aren't many draws that don't include a made hand I'm behind.

1/4 of the time that Villain's on an overpair he also has a flush draw. He can't like check/calling without, but he might just be resigned to showing down and/or betting a 4th flush card on the river. He also might have hit TP or MP on the flop and think that he has some 2-pair outs if behind.

River: (4.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB checks, grasshopper ???

The river doesn't change anything for me. He might find it a bit scary, or he might decide that I'm now less likely to have one -- could be reasonable to assume that I'd raise a safe turn with TP rather than popping the flop. But I doubt that it has much effect on his thinking unless he sees a pair and thinks, "Scary ace and now scary trips. Crap."

The bluffing value of the A is probably gone after the turn check through, or certainly diminished. On the other hand, a flush card will obviously not be a factor any longer, so we don't have to be as efficient in our bluff. On the other other hand Villain no longer has to worry about having to put chips in on two streets.

So... any bettors?

10-15-2005, 11:47 PM

I think the value of betting is gone. The T is in no way scary for villian. If you were going to fire, it should have been on the A.

Check.
I can't see you folding any better hands (getting bluff raised here would suck goats) and any hand calling has you beat.

albedoa

10-15-2005, 11:54 PM

Why would Villain attempt another check-raise after the first one failed?

I bet this. Villain is telling you he doesn't have a confident hand.

10-15-2005, 11:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why would Villain attempt another check-raise after the first one failed?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he thinks you're likely to bet with more hands than you'll call with.

[ QUOTE ]
I bet

[/ QUOTE ]/images/graemlins/blush.gif

albedoa

10-16-2005, 12:08 AM

Hero has been yelling, "I'm weak/tight!" The BB saw an opportunity, and it looks like he gave up.

I still don't see any sane person going for a second check-raise attempt here, especially on someone who they read as weak/tight.

Shillx

10-16-2005, 12:12 AM

Flop is a call. Turn is probably a mixed strategy. Sometimes bet with the intention of not putting another bet in UI and sometimes check with the intention of not putting another bet in UI except maybe as a bluff raise.

Edit: River is a check.

detruncate

10-16-2005, 12:36 AM

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: grasshopper is MP2 with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
3 folds, grasshopper raises, 3 folds, 1 folds, BB 3-bets, grasshopper calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB bets, grasshopper calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks, grasshopper checks.

River: (4.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB checks, grasshopper checks.

Final Pot: 4.25 BB.

Results:

BB has 4d 4c (two pairs, tens and fours.)
grasshopper has 8c 8s (two pairs, tens and eights.)
grasshopper wins 4.25 BB.

In the end I don't hate the way I played it. My alternative would be a turn bet/fold. Shill's river raise it not something I'm ready to consider, but he's always been way cooler than me.

Thanks to all who replied.

albedoa

10-16-2005, 12:51 AM

Not to be results-oriented, but an overplayed PP is exactly what this looked like. I think his river check tells us a lot, and I don't see how a river bet is a bad move.

digitalis

10-16-2005, 01:36 AM

There is no way a worse hand is calling so there is no value in betting. If you put him on a overs or a PP worse than yours then you should not bet.

DavidC

10-16-2005, 01:39 AM

This is third-pair, not middle pair.

The difference is huge, in terms of both outs as well as how likely you are to be ahead.

... and I'm a nit.

Edit: Oh... you meant middle pocket pair... cool

DavidC

10-16-2005, 01:56 AM

Shill says the flop is a call... and he's always right, but I'm going to say something else because I've got a thick skull. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Why not raise the flop here, and bet to the river if he's calling down (as this would indicate overs)?

...

I'll read the rest of this thread to see what people are saying and why... I'm not too good at HU play.

digitalis

10-16-2005, 02:12 AM

I'd like Shillx's view on this, but I'll take a shot at it.

I get the feeling villain has overcards or has a big hand. If he has overs he his likely to put another bet in on the turn if we just call the flop. But if we raise the flop we won't get anymore money out of him.

Also, our pot equity is much higher on the turn if villian doesn't pair. So we make more money on a turn raise.

detruncate

10-16-2005, 02:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is third-pair, not middle pair.

The difference is huge, in terms of both outs as well as how likely you are to be ahead.

... and I'm a nit.

Edit: Oh... you meant middle pocket pair... cool

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. Bad title. Well nitted.

DavidC

10-16-2005, 02:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is tough situation. You are either WB, or not that far ahead (he has overs).

I think waitng to raise is the best line. Your pot equity goes way up on the turn if he just has overs. If the turn is favorable raise. After that I'm probably folding to further aggression.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the thing, on the turn, I don't think raising is a good idea: if he re-raises, you've put in a ton of action altready. If you set the tone on the flop, you know that his future actions are made based on his hands more often and that he'll probably dump his overs.

In HU play, a lot of your value comes from getting to the showdown and collecting your initial PF showdown equity. If you can't get to showdown you're giving up a lot.

Anyways, I don't think raising the turn is good, because it hurts your chance at showing down, and if you fold to a t3b you're showing way way too much weakness.

--Dave.

DavidC

10-16-2005, 02:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Flop is a call. Turn is probably a mixed strategy. Sometimes bet with the intention of not putting another bet in UI and sometimes check with the intention of not putting another bet in UI except maybe as a bluff raise.

Edit: River is a check.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shill, why is the flop a call?

Also, if you had bet and he donks the river, that makes 7.75bb in there... you're putting in 2 bets, so he has to fold something that he bet that beats you maybe 25% of the time.

I'm a little skeptical that this would happen that often, and your language was a little hesitant in this statemetn... /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Could you comment on that?

Shillx

10-16-2005, 04:21 AM

This has little to do with this hand. It is the concepts that I deem important.

Well see I disagree with the board's theroy in a few ways on a hand like this.

1) The general theory here is that we should only raise if our hand doesn't mind a reraise.

2) Most people here play their hands straight up preflop.

Most people play in a way that they only raise when they like their hand. Our strategy destroys theirs because we get maximum value from them when they are beat, and we lose the least when we are behind. The problem comes when you start playing against people who know how to exploit you. Let's say that you are the villian in the hand that Degenerate /images/graemlins/grin.gif shared with us, and you hold A /images/graemlins/heart.gif A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. You bet the flop and our hero raises (you can't see his cards). What is your best play?

a) 3-bet and prepare to bet the turn
b) Fold
c) Call and check/raise the turn
d) Call and check/call the turn

The problem with making these raises is that you will get killed in touger games unless you mix up your strategy preflop. We can't have certain hands when we just call preflop (and we aren't raising some hands like AT on the flop), so the villian can just take us to school postflop since our hand is clear as day while his is well hidden. You have to be willing to make this raise with more then a set or low underpair here in order to make it work at the next level. If the goal is to become a better player, you should begin thinking about these concepts now. Mixing strategies is the most effective way to become a better player right now (not talking about FPS here). Raising here might be the best way to get the $$$$ now, but poker is not a vacuum and you have to consider the consequences of these plays against different types of oppoenents.

Brad The answer is d) BTW

Calling is actually a really good strategy here. Sometimes we will calldown with AK. Other times we will calldown with 88 or JJ. Sometimes we will have a flush or straight draw. So it is tough for the villian to know if he is good or not with a hand like AK or AQ.

nomadtla

10-16-2005, 04:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This has little to do with this hand. It is the concepts that I deem important.

Well see I disagree with the board's theroy in a few ways on a hand like this.

1) The general theory here is that we should only raise if our hand doesn't mind a reraise.

2) Most people here play their hands straight up preflop.

Most people play in a way that they only raise when they like their hand. Our strategy destroys theirs because we get maximum value from them when they are beat, and we lose the least when we are behind. The problem comes when you start playing against people who know how to exploit you. Let's say that you are the villian in the hand that Degenerate /images/graemlins/grin.gif shared with us, and you hold A /images/graemlins/heart.gif A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. You bet the flop and our hero raises (you can't see his cards). What is your best play?

a) 3-bet and prepare to bet the turn
b) Fold
c) Call and check/raise the turn
d) Call and check/call the turn

The problem with making these raises is that you will get killed in touger games unless you mix up your strategy preflop. We can't have certain hands when we just call preflop (and we aren't raising some hands like AT on the flop), so the villian can just take us to school postflop since our hand is clear as day while his is well hidden. You have to be willing to make this raise with more then a set or low underpair here in order to make it work at the next level. If the goal is to become a better player, you should begin thinking about these concepts now. Mixing strategies is the most effective way to become a better player right now (not talking about FPS here). Raising here might be the best way to get the $$$$ now, but poker is not a vacuum and you have to consider the consequences of these plays against different types of oppoenents.

Brad The answer is d) BTW

Calling is actaully a really good mixed strategy here. Sometimes we will calldown with AK. Other times we will calldown with 88 or JJ. Sometimes we will have a flush or straight draw. So it is tough for the villian to know if he is good or not with a hand like AK or AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

NH, this is just plain goodness.

10-16-2005, 05:44 AM

I'm probably wrong.

But it seems like a lot of HU advise seems to involve a call down line, getting to SD and exploiting our PF equity.

DavidC

10-16-2005, 08:41 AM

Thanks for the response, bro. It was awesome!

I just want to let you know that that offer I made, to let you play for me, is still standing... /images/graemlins/cool.gif

---

Edit: FWIW, I REALLY like calling with AT. If he's got three outs, let's let him try to hit his ace, keep him going if he doesn't hit... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

baronzeus

10-16-2005, 08:58 AM

you have AA here? and you are calling down on a T9x board?

no, i think you need to check-raise the turn. the way you mix it up is by raising/check-raising the turn with a broader variety of hands (besides monsters). like, start doing it with a pair of 9s. or a pair of 2s. keep them on their feet. 1BB is just too much to give up.

oh, and btw, im pretty sure if i was the villain iin this hand with AA and hero had been watching me play, i would be called down with almost anything. i am just too random with my raises that putting me on a hand when i raise/check-raise the turn is very difficult.

albedoa

10-16-2005, 12:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There is no way a worse hand is calling so there is no value in betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I just woke up, but I have to reply to say that I totally disagree with this.

But then again, maybe I've played with some huge donks at 2/4. I would expect a lot of them to call a bet with crap after that much action.