Premium Pairs Question

I know the books say in low limit stud to raise the bring-in with a pair Ten's through Aces's if there is one or less higher, unduplicated card behind you; yet, some say that there are only two high cards in stud, Aces and Kings.

I feel like a dog following that advice with anything but Aces or Kings and tend to consider the other "premium pairs" like low pair and raise with them only with a live Ace or King kicker.

I would appreciate your opinions.

Thanks,

John

[patrick dicaprio]

you are not playing strongly enough even at low limits if you only raise with aces or kings. frankly when i play 5-10 i raise virtually every time with hands like these unless i am in late position and there is a full pot.

note that you dont necessarily care if you limit the field with a raise at low limt. when players call your raise with much worse hands, as often happens, you profit. so raise it up!

with tens you have a different story and i think you are often better off calling with tens with other players in. but if you are next or one after the bring in you must raise.

one other thing that is rarely mentioned here is that in my opinion it is often a mistake in a low ante game to raise and knock players out with hands like 9A9 or 7K7. in multiway pots these are not strong hands. i will often play these hands like you suggest, and just call and hope to catch on fourth. it may be coincidence but when i started playing hands this way my profit went up.

Pat

[Wombat6]

If you were in a 7 handed stud hi game and your average Low limit opponents are showing in sequence
A /forums/images/icons/spade.gif,
K /forums/images/icons/heart.gif,
Q /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif
K /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif,
A /forums/images/icons/heart.gif
Q /forums/images/icons/spade.gif,

you had the bring in with J /forums/images/icons/spade.gif, T /forums/images/icons/club.gif buried and J /forums/images/icons/club.gif in the door. the A /forums/images/icons/spade.gif is next to act.

1. would you consider the J's as a premium pair?

2. How would you play them?

what if your J's were buried ? answer 1 and 2

what if the alpha numeric values of your opponents up cards were less than the T but they were all unduplicated and you were last to act? answer 1 and 2

wombat6

Pat,

Thanks for your response. Chip Reese, in "Super Systems"
says he includes 10's in premium pairs because they limit possibilities of opposing straights, but I agree with you.

John

Wombat6,

Your question is thought provoking.

Even though all higher cards are duplicated and I have the start of a flush and straight draw; I figure of the six higher cards showing, there is at least one crippled pair higher than J's and would open for the required $1.00.

I realize a buried pair is stronger but would still open for $1.00.

Some say 7-card stud is a game of high cards and live cards and in your first example, they have the high cards and I have the live ones.

My thinking is tripping J's is a 21 to 1 shot, winning with J's is slim, two pair with J's over can be a trap, and catching a flush or straight has a late start, increasing odds.



If all up cards were lower than my pair, no one raised, and I was last to act, I would bet the max.

Thanks for your response.


John

[SittingBull]

pairs/big kicker on 3rd,U are looking to play--NOT jam it! In these low-limit games,playing a jamming game with thes hands on 3rd will frequently send U to the cage to re-load. /forums/images/icons/confused.gif
HappyPokering, /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif
SittingBull

[MRBAA]

In no ante games it's certainly not correct to raise with these hands. But in a "typical" 5-10 game with a .50 ante and a $2 bring in, it often is correct to raise even with nines and up. It really depends on your position, how many are in (if any), what they play like and what cards are out behind you. In fact, I think this is one of the more interesting features of stud vs. hold-em -- in he, the positional/hand values are much more defined. In stud, you often have opportunities to play a hand like (9J)9 totally differently -- no one in to you, an eight and a four to act behind, raise.
Three limpers to you, big cards to act behind, call. Raised to you by a jack, with a king and ace to act behind, fold. And that's not even discussing dead cards or the types of players involved.

[SittingBull]

[Wombat6]

the chances that you opponets have a over pair are the same as you tripping on the next card . that is 21:1. you need to bring it in for the max .if you are raised you have a easy call if a late position re raises you can likely make it three bets and further limit the field because of your live pair and str8flush kicker.

Most any good card that hits you is bad for your opponents. if the opponents (there shouldnt be that many if you do raise) hit good you almost always have a easy desision.

you should almost always make it the full bet coming in in either of the two senarios. (But if many in not always in the last.) especially if you have an overly agressive opponent either directly to your right or left. then the field will likely face two bets cold and will fold all of their crappy and some of their good hands. leaving you heads up with some one with a bad draw or a dead over pair and kicker or a holed up mid pair which is easy to see improve on all but the last card. this really doesnt frighten you if they do improve except to a bigger flush.if they are on a flush early and catch a 4 flush on 4 th or 5 th you might be in trouble. this is a reason you want to make em fold early. I realize that many LL players hold on hell or high water but most will fold semi dead 3 flushes to 2 bets cold in a short handed pot. If they wont... well god love em .

you should purchase and read pages 60-74 (really you should read all the pages multiple times) of 7 Card Stud for advanced players. it explains these concepts much better than I ever could

gotta go, that crazy crocodile hunter is coming on and I dont want to miss my cameo.

good luck

Wombat6

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Saying that only A or K are high cards in stud is ridiculous.

When you've got split queens, and there is one or no cards behind you higher than a queen, you of course raise. There's nothing less than premium about this hand.

Say you've got hidden tens and there's nothing higher than a nine out there. Once again, you've got to like your starting hand.

Even split jacks or tens IS a premium hand if there aren't two or three unduplicated high cards out there.

The objective on 3rd in any of these (or similar) situations is to get people out, so your pair will stand a better chance of holding up.

It really is as simple as that.

Now when you've got a smaller pair, but your kicker is higher than anyone else's upcard, and you're totally live, it's almost as good as having a big pair yourself. You've got about a 40-something % chance of hitting two pair or trips by the river. If it's a hidden pair, and your high card is up, I'd play it the same as a "premium hand" in most situations.

al