22's vs 11's Someone who can actually tell the difference?

I've been multitabling 11's (over 1000) with a good deal of success and I'm moving to the 22's. By most good poker players standards the play is not very good at either buy in level, but I think there's a noticeable difference in skill between the two. late game play is bad at both, but I notice a lot more people playing tight and the push/fold game becomes a lot different with more people with smallish stacks involved. What are the thoughts on the jump (ok we'll call it a light hop) to the 22's. I've gotten into bad habits of trying cute crap that works out at the 11's but I fear it won't work here.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

[SCfuji]

as long as losing a few buyins wont make you panic you should be fine. plenty of people willing to give you all their chips in the first few levels.

[stanzee]

In the daytime games there is a noticeable difference between the 10s and 20s. Evenings, there isn't a great deal of difference. Both very low standard in the evenings. I notice you mentioned about getting into habits of cute traps in the 10s. I was the same but you will find that certain "moves" don't work in the 20s, but you'll find other ways of picking up easy chips as 75% of 22ers play very similarly. This is part of the reason i have been able to maintain a 30% ROI at this level.

Stanzee /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[SCfuji]

the biggest difference is that as you move up the preflop play will improve slightly. if you move up stakes little by little like most of us, it is difficult to notice this.

[ QUOTE ]
75% of 22ers play very similarly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have noticed this and think this will be a benefit to me once I get out of my bad habits of trapping people with top pair good kicker and actually start putting predictable opponents on hands.

I've noticed my premiums aren't getting paid off in the early levels. Which I think is caused by the fact that $11ers will go all-in early with low pairs. This doesn't seem to happen at the 22s.

I'm in the same boat as you recondite, trying to make the transition.

[brimstone1]

I'd like to hear some thoughts on the issue as well.

Most of the time all I hear is "there is absolutely no difference between 11s/22s, they are both horrible! full of donks!"

Yet, every time I try to move up, I get my ass kicked.

My personal views after about 500 of them:

First of all, almost everybody playing the 22s defends against continuation bets.
Of course, you can exploit this, but when you can't get any c-bets to work, it doesn't really pay off well.

Although the end game is still fairly bad (a lot of level 4,5 limping, etc). People seem to be making a lot of really weird calls that end up hurting you (the kind where its +EV for him to fold (at least not -EV), and +EV for you if he folds, but when he actually calls it makes both players worse off?)

BTW, there was some discussion on that topic a week ago or so, maybe someone remembers where it is?

[SCfuji]

dont continuation bet as much on the flop and use those chips for the turn. most of the time two checks means air and a flop check, then turn bet means that they wanted money to go in on the flop or they are just donkeys that bluff but thats the minority case.

yes there are tons of spite calls. its something to be expected and accepted when a lot of our play comes from bubble pushing.

Yes! This stuff is gold guys, keep up the info.

[brimstone1]

edit: I've decided that theres basically no point to what I said here. move on.

[brimstone1]

I can see how checking, letting him check, and leading the turn can be a smart way of representing "oops, I wanted you to bet the flop, but since you didn't, now I need to get chips in the pot!", making our AK on rag flop/turn seem like an overpair or TPTK, etc; basically as if we missed opportunity to CR him.

BTW, what if you're in position?

Lets say I have a limper, I raise, he calls.

Rainbow/rag flop.

Villain checks.

Hero...?

Checking here feels weird, especially against a single opponent, with Hero holding AK.

[ QUOTE ]
In the daytime games there is a noticeable difference between the 10s and 20s. Evenings, there isn't a great deal of difference. Both very low standard in the evenings.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm still pissed off about this. If I wanted to play from 6-12 in the evenings, I'd have to play from 12-6 in the night here, because I live in Holland. So that basically means I'll never get a great ROI..

[golfcchs]

I actually like the 22's allot more then the 11's. Have way higher ROI at 22's. The main difference I have noticed is slightly tighter and continuation bets against mutiple opponents work way less often. One thing I really like at the 22's is level 3 because I have found you can push marginal hands from sb and bb with more fold equity then at the 11's. I think what really makes the 22's better is they have some sense some it is easier to put them on hands and understand what they are doing.

[SCfuji]

this may sound harsh but i dont mean it that way- at the party 22s you should be able to beat it for a solid roi no matter what the time. what matters most is if you are well rested and focused.

[SCfuji]

personally i dont do cont. bets against multiple opponents with air... if im putting money in it is usually with a solid hand/draw.

[golfcchs]

Ya I agree, but at the 11's 2 players will rutinely fold to a continue bet.

[ QUOTE ]
this may sound harsh but i dont mean it that way- at the party 22s you should be able to beat it for a solid roi no matter what the time. what matters most is if you are well rested and focused.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, but my ROI will not be as high as a player who is just as good and plays during peak hours. There is a significant difference.

[stanzee]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this may sound harsh but i dont mean it that way- at the party 22s you should be able to beat it for a solid roi no matter what the time. what matters most is if you are well rested and focused.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, but my ROI will not be as high as a player who is just as good and plays during peak hours. There is a significant difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

I live in London and am in the same boat as far as being forced to play the slightly "tougher" daytime games. I actually have to "tweak" my strategy from daytime to evening games, to get maximum ROI, as the table conditions are very different before 5-7pm EST. There are advantages in the daytime games, such as the players are much, much more predictable, and a quality player like Stanzee can exploit this. Obviously the cons are that the tables are much tighter daytime, so your big hands don't get paid off as much as they would in the evening games.

[Manque]

I got paid off quite a bit by making continuation bets at the 11's

[valenzuela]

what do the 22s have that the 11s dont.
-less donks early-on
-less ppl that get angry and call bubble pushes with K4.
My sng guide:
Peak time:
11: 7donks 2 tightys
22: 6 donks 3 tightys
Not so peak time:
11: 5 donks 4 tightys
22: 3 donks 5 tightys 1 2+2er

[brimstone1]

This is all not-so-good advice.

Has the influx of newbies driven out old timers to such a degree that we can't get any sound advice from the veterans on these boards anymore?

[valenzuela]

[ QUOTE ]
This is all not-so-good advice.

Has the influx of newbies driven out old timers to such a degree that we can't get any sound advice from the veterans on these boards anymore?

[/ QUOTE ]
WTF, Im not good enough for you /images/graemlins/mad.gif

Will it make you feel better if Irieguy comes here and tells you " the 22s are slighty harder than the 11s, the difference tends to decrease on peak times. Keep in mind that you will see a lot of donks of both levels"

[brimstone1]

I hadn't given any names, but if you must take it personally, I do think that your "break-up of the levels by hour" is ridiculous, unscientific, and a guessing-game with no actual substance/data at best.

stanzee is useless as always, and a post of "I got paid off quite a bit by making continuation bets at the 11's" is just brilliant, but on a retarded level.

Do you catch my drift?

PS: I never said you were not good enough, or even give your name explicitly. I've been reading your posts thinking that you have at least some idea about what you're doing, so don't get angsty about this, its not personal.

[valenzuela]

First of all faces indicate that Im not being totally serious.
Second I think that this thread does not require an itervention of a experienced poster.
Third my level break up is obviously a guess game.