3/6 - No way I can call river?

[Burdzthewurd]

3/6 LO8 6-max on Stars

SB is very loose/bad, BB is solid

I raise A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifA /images/graemlins/club.gif UTG, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls

Flop K /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Not an ideal flop, but a blank one.

SB checks, BB checks, I bet, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, SB folds, BB folds

Turn 4d /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I bet again (bad bad bad, but do I just check/fold here or check/call?) UTG+1 calls, CO raises (eek), I call, UTG+1 calls

River 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I check, UTG+1 checks, CO bets, my A7 certainly can't be good, with UTG+1 behind me, can AA be good for high enough here?

[Buzz]

Burdz - Trying to steal the pot after this flop is O.K. in some games, but doesn't work here when UTG+1 and CO both call.

Then the turn is a bad card for you and probably a good card for at least one of your opponents. In my humble opinion, it is at this point that you concede the hand by check/folding. Doing anything else is overplaying your aces.

However: [ QUOTE ]
I bet again (bad bad bad, but do I just check/fold here or check/call?)....

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. Your bet was bad, bad, bad. You should check/fold instead of betting.

[ QUOTE ]
....UTG+1 calls, CO raises (eek),....

[/ QUOTE ]

"eek" is right. You already screwed up by betting. Now fold.

[ QUOTE ]
I call, UTG+1 calls

[/ QUOTE ]

Bad call. You should have folded.

[ QUOTE ]
River 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I check, UTG+1 checks, CO bets, my A7 certainly can't be good, with UTG+1 behind me, can AA be good for high enough here?

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't do this. You can't chase all the way to the river without a draw and then fold.

However, since your pair of aces is probably not good for high you should fold. You've gotten yourself into an impossible situation. You have definitely over-played your aces. You've gotten yourself stuck in the tar.

So what does Brer Fox do now that he's stuck in the tar?

At this point, I guess you go ahead and call one more bet. Next time fold before you get to this point.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[DyessMan89]

Preflop- Raising is fine.
Flop- You have an overpair, a weak backdoor low draw, and a gushot straight draw that will most likley be tossed if its the J /images/graemlins/spade.gif. This is an ugly flop for your hand. Check/fold this one down ... certainly dont bet at it.
Turn- Your hand is even worse, due to the now possible
low draw that A7 wont win. Not sure why you feel the need to bet again. This board sucks. Check/fold this one out.
River- In a 3 way pot and you are second to act, you usually have to act aggressivley. In a spot like this where I have completley commited myself, I probobly would attempt to raise to isolate CO and hope that either my A7 or my AA is good. This isnt that bad of a play here since UTG hasnt shown much strength either.

[benwood]

I would not have thought about this river check-raise, but it sure is an interesting play. Buzz, if you would give me your view on this play, I would appreciate it. Thanks.

[DyessMan89]

[ QUOTE ]
I would not have thought about this river check-raise, but it sure is an interesting play. Buzz, if you would give me your view on this play, I would appreciate it. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

My view isnt good enough? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif Just kidding.

BTW, your not second to act, made a mistake there. But regardless, I think its a worthwhile play.

[Buzz]

Benwood - I thought Dyessman's idea of check-raising on the river was interesting too.

Does the check-raise with the threat of more possible raising induce UTG+1 to fold what otherwise would be a winner? And if so, does Hero gain? (since Hero will still have to contend with CO).

I don't know. Possibly. Depends on the tenacity of UTG+1. Also depends on the cards UTG+1 holds. UTG+1 could be holding the nut low here, possibly not raising because he thinks he's getting quartered (or not raising for some other compelling or non-compelling reason, including giving his seemingly overly aggressive opponents enough rope to hang themselves).

Or UTG+1 could have been on a spade flush draw and/or a straight draw after the flop and could have missed. If so, UTG+1 could possibly have a poor low not worth playing to a check-raise (A-6?, 3-5?, 3-6?, 4-6?). But then UTG+1 might fold to a single bet anyhow. With a hand that included ace-five or spades, UTG+1 might call a single bet because of the size of the pot, but be reluctant to call a double bet with the threat of re-raising.... So there are lots of various possibilities.

If hero check-raises, there’s still a risk of CO re-raising, maybe holding the nut high (a set of kings) with a non-nut low better than Hero’s (or with the double nuts - a set of kings plus the nut low).

I'm still wondering what CO could be holding to raise after the turn. (a set of kings, slow played for one round after the flop? a set of fours made on the turn? a semi-bluff? a bluff? reading opponents for trash?...) Hard to figure but sobering.

If UTG+1 doesn't fold to the check-raise, then Brer Hero is stuck in the tar even deeper than before. And even if UTG+1 does fold, CO could easily have Hero beaten both for high and low.

A check-raise here seems almost a desperation play. Yes, a check-raise here would increase Hero's chances of salvaging something, because it might possibly induce a UTG+1 with a poor low who missed a spade flush draw to fold. And if so, and also if CO has a worse low than Hero, then Hero would salvage half the pot by knocking out UTG+1 and winning the low half UTG+1 would otherwise have won.

But is the gamble worth the investment?

I don't know.

But it's an interesting idea.

There sure are a lot of possibilities for hands for both UTG+1 and CO. Maybe neither one of them even has a low.

I don’t subscribe to the idea that you need the nuts in this game to win. But gee whiz, you do generally need some sort of decent hand/board fit! Hero’s hand/board fit is very poor. and when you play any sort of non-nut hand, you do run the risk of running into the nuts. Therefore Hero should be out of the hand at this point. This is a classical example of overplaying a hand held pair of aces in Omaha-8.

But now what? Audaciously over-play them even more?

The check-raise does have a certain appeal if UTG+1 is not a tenacious opponent (a “weak” opponent).

But would I check raise on the river here?

No.

Of the various reasons not to check-raise, I especially wouldn’t want the double big bet to get called by UTG+1 and then re-raised by CO.

I originally suggested calling. I don’t really like calling, but I don’t like folding or check-raising either. I would have avoided this predicament (where I don’t like any of the alternatives) by not betting the turn. I fold a lot of hands before the flop to avoid being in the predicament of not liking any of the alternatives I’ll likely be facing later in the hand. I think the lesson to be learned here is to avoid the predicament of not knowing what to do.

Buzz

[benwood]

Thanks Buzz. Good analysis. Yes, I would check-fold the turn, too. Since my Omaha play is not all that strong, I go out of my way to avoid getting into complicated situations like this.