Is it me or is stars 1/2 garbage?

[Fryguy]

In lieu of the partypoker happenings, I decided to take a look at other sites. With the pokerstars rake being so favorable, I figured eh let's give it a shot.

So I went on a turbo bonus-clearing spree today, and cranked out 2100+ hands on 1/2 tables on stars. The vpip on the tables was terrible. I don't recall seeing one true ridiculously bad fish. A couple of bad players sure, but nothing worth trying to make money off of. The tables are filled with tight tight players. Flops seen % almost never exceeded 30 on any table, let alone the vpip (which we all know is a few % lower). Trying to play profitable poker on 20-25% vpip tables is a fruitless endeavor.

Did I catch stars on a bad day or is it usually like this? Are the .50/1 games any better?

Not that it matters at all, but over the 2000 hands, my bb/100 is .01, and I'm up a grand total of .25 BB (50 cents). Sample size etc, but still, the tables just felt so tight I don't see how they could be profitable. And yes I tried jumping tables.

Any thoughts? Am I wrong about stars?

[Augster]

My experiences there exactly.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Flops seen % almost never exceeded 30 on any table, let alone the vpip (which we all know is a few % lower). Trying to play profitable poker on 20-25% vpip tables is a fruitless endeavor.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's profitable. You just need to learn how to adjust and how to select a good seat. All you need is to be in position against one bad player and have no really strong other players at the table to profit.

But I'm pretty sure that the microlimit tables are soft enough that it's possible to beat (at a decent winrate) a generic table in a generic position.

Stars, at least in my short experience at 1/2 there, has the most skilled players (for that level) that I've seen. Lots of VPIPs between 12-20, PFRs of 7-10. Plenty of rocks, too. Don't recall seeing many hands worse than ATs at showdown.

I'm guessing a lot of 2+2ers are bonus whoring there right now, so in a week or two this might ease up. (Bonuses don't expire as far as I know, so you shouldn't miss out by waiting.)

Basically it's a matter of playing your good cards aggressively, keeping track of tendencies (the bluff check-raise is one I saw a few times - I'd 3-bet, they'd fold), and zeroing in on the couple of fish at the table.

The way I figure it, it's good experience. I currently have the burning desire to know how to beat all types of tables. In the past couple of months, I've done the loose-passive at Paradise, the tight-passive at Absolute, and the recent LAGfest at Party. The Stars tables just complete the Circle of Life.

In fact, I think I'll go play some there right now. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[UATrewqaz]

It's the worst game I've seen on the net. Obviously there are probably a few fish here and there and just by chance they form a good table every now and then, but I was also trying to clear some Stars bonii finally and played 1/2 and 80% of the players are VPIP < 20%

Was rocktastic, I saw so many 1 player raises, everyone including blinds folds.... luckily I stole my share of blinds and stuff.

[RatFink]

The short-handed 1/2 tables were quite playable in my most recent visit there for the bonus.

[Fryguy]

Not sure if I'm ready for 6-max yet.
Does anyone have any suggestions on some other sites to hang out at while I wait around for party and rakeback to work itself out completely? (Yes I'm fully aware of the current situation).

Is absolute any good? Bonuswhoring to build up a roll there might be nice.
[ QUOTE ]
It's the worst game I've seen on the net. Obviously there are probably a few fish here and there and just by chance they form a good table every now and then, but I was also trying to clear some Stars bonii finally and played 1/2 and 80% of the players are VPIP < 20%

Was rocktastic, I saw so many 1 player raises, everyone including blinds folds.... luckily I stole my share of blinds and stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ClaytonN]

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It's the worst game I've seen on the net.

[/ QUOTE ]

Full ring, yes.

Shorthanded, HELL NO. <4 handed it is so easy to run them over with proper aggression and SH play.

[ QUOTE ]
Is absolute any good?

[/ QUOTE ]
If you don't like rocks, you'll hate Absolute. At Stars, at least they get money into the pot sometimes.

[ClaytonN]

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure if I'm ready for 6-max yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

You saying that has already told me you aren't, and I don't even know you. Hi!

6-max is very easy if you take the effort to learn. Assume the first 4 people have folded, defend your blinds more, and get more aggressive. Ding! $$$$

[imported_bezdi]

Play Stars 6 max. They will cold call your raises with anything. I still don't understand why 6 max is so much looser on Stars compared to their regular full ring game. Maybe it is the quicker hands that make people want to play more. Or they are afraid of blinds coming around too fast.

Some guy called my pfr with Q8o, me and this other guy cap every street flop / and turn while he is still calling with a gutshot straight draw. Yes, he did make it on the river, only to split my pot with me. Top 2 pair guy lost big.

They donk bet check raise also. 3 bet them and they will fold.

Stars is tight right now /images/graemlins/frown.gif /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[TripleH68]

[ QUOTE ]
Trying to play profitable poker on 20-25% vpip tables is a fruitless endeavor.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is really not true. It may not be as exciting. I will give you that.

[jrz1972]

Listen to what ClaytonN says. He is right. 6-max is very easy if you put a little effort into it, and the skill discrepency between you and the rest of the table has the potential to be much larger than it ever would be in full ring.

Everybody, and I mean literally every single person, who has ever played both full ring and shorthanded will tell you that shorthanded games are generally much softer than the corresponding full ring game at the same site. Basically, full ring games attract multitabling weak-tighties who have their copies of WLLH dog-eared and highlighted. 6-max games attract donks. You can beat the weak-tighties, but the donks are more profitable.

Yes, the full ring games at Stars suck. The 6-max games are quite soft, though, if you know what you're doing. Likewise, all I've ever heard about Absolute was that it was a rock garden, but again I've found their shorthanded games to be very easy.

Learn to play 6-max. If you don't like it, you'll find that the skills you develop make you into a better full ring player. More likely, you'll never want to go back to full ring.

[Obliky]

[ QUOTE ]
Learn to play 6-max. If you don't like it, you'll find that the skills you develop make you into a better full ring player. More likely, you'll never want to go back to full ring.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen to that...stars 6-max is treating me well at the moment, but i found the full ring games tough.

[trainslayer]

[ QUOTE ]
Listen to what ClaytonN says. He is right. 6-max is very easy if you put a little effort into it, and the skill discrepency between you and the rest of the table has the potential to be much larger than it ever would be in full ring.

Everybody, and I mean literally every single person, who has ever played both full ring and shorthanded will tell you that shorthanded games are generally much softer than the corresponding full ring game at the same site. Basically, full ring games attract multitabling weak-tighties who have their copies of WLLH dog-eared and highlighted. 6-max games attract donks. You can beat the weak-tighties, but the donks are more profitable.

Yes, the full ring games at Stars suck. The 6-max games are quite soft, though, if you know what you're doing. Likewise, all I've ever heard about Absolute was that it was a rock garden, but again I've found their shorthanded games to be very easy.

Learn to play 6-max. If you don't like it, you'll find that the skills you develop make you into a better full ring player. More likely, you'll never want to go back to full ring.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen brother. When I read the OP my first thought was what the hell are they talkin about. I haven't seen a table less that 30-40% vpip. I just assumed everyone was playin 6max now. Just the thought of playin full makes me sick to my stomach now. Plus you don't have to get on a waiting list for 6 max (at least at stars and not usually at absolute.)

[ QUOTE ]
In lieu of the partypoker happenings, I decided to take a look at other sites. With the pokerstars rake being so favorable, I figured eh let's give it a shot.

So I went on a turbo bonus-clearing spree today, and cranked out 2100+ hands on 1/2 tables on stars. The vpip on the tables was terrible. I don't recall seeing one true ridiculously bad fish. A couple of bad players sure, but nothing worth trying to make money off of. The tables are filled with tight tight players. Flops seen % almost never exceeded 30 on any table, let alone the vpip (which we all know is a few % lower). Trying to play profitable poker on 20-25% vpip tables is a fruitless endeavor.

Did I catch stars on a bad day or is it usually like this? Are the .50/1 games any better?

Not that it matters at all, but over the 2000 hands, my bb/100 is .01, and I'm up a grand total of .25 BB (50 cents). Sample size etc, but still, the tables just felt so tight I don't see how they could be profitable. And yes I tried jumping tables.

Any thoughts? Am I wrong about stars?

[/ QUOTE ]

The tables are definitely tighter than what most of us are probably used to, but it doesn't mean they are not beatable.

I played there for the first time last night (half drunk) and made a small profit just messing around.

The small NL games are a cakewalk try those out.

Ill drink to that! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Oddly enough, when I fired up Stars last night, I immediately found some loose tables and had a great session.

Problem with 6-max is the variance - I've been taking shots, and I'm in the black so far, but not without some scary freefalls. Two separate times I lost almost my whole 25BB buyin at a table, only to come back and make a profit (at one I ended up making double my buyin - a 45BB upswing). That's never happened to me in full ring.

But fish are addicted to 6-max for the action, which makes it in theory a great place to make money. (I suspect some 2+2ers play it for the action as well.)

Yes the variance in 6-max is much larger, so don't worry about losing a buy-in. Many days you'll double or triple it. I went down 250 BB my first 2 days at 6-max, then back up 150 BB, then up another 50 BB yesterday. It's crazy, but it's no different from any other very high VP$IP game, and eventually the draw outs will average out.

I've been at stars 6-max clearing the bonus and have found it to be really great. Be careful about 3-betting a check-raise though. You need to do it only sparingly. The fish won't fold and won't raise with nothing usually. There are some who bluff way too much on the 6-max tables, but usually the best strategy against them is to let them keep bluffing then raise them on the end, which pulls them even further away from optimal bluffing frequency.