i suck. turn donks suck too.

[detruncate]

Empire Poker 0.50/1.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(10 handed)</font>

Table is full of TAGs and various non-egregiously loose players. A pf raise is fairly likely to take down the pot. Tons of blind stealing and shorhanded pots vs fairly unterrible players. I'm leaving soon.

Preflop: dumbass is UTG+2 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">dumbass raises</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, BB calls.

Villain seems TAGgy.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">dumbass bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, dumbass ???

What does the donk say? Let's pretend I'm hard of hearing (since I seem to be stone cold deaf lately). What's our plan going forward?

[McGahee]

I'd probably raise the river because the board is so drawless, but a turn raise is ok.

[detruncate]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably raise the river because the board is so drawless, but a turn raise is ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's your plan if 3-bet?

[SlantNGo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably raise the river because the board is so drawless, but a turn raise is ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's your plan if 3-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Call. I doubt you will be 3-bet often though.

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably raise the river because the board is so drawless, but a turn raise is ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's your plan if 3-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about my read. Probably fold without one.

It's good to think about having a plan "in case x happens" but I think sometimes people take it to extremes in spots where it just doesn't happen often enough to worry about.

[detruncate]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably raise the river because the board is so drawless, but a turn raise is ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's your plan if 3-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about my read. Probably fold without one.

It's good to think about having a plan "in case x happens" but I think sometimes people take it to extremes in spots where it just doesn't happen often enough to worry about.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think he donks this fairly often hoping to 3-bet?

I think he either wants me to fold or to raise, though I'm not sure which. I may have seemed weak/tight at this point due to too many whiffs. I may have also seemed overly aggressive due to 20/13/3ish and some terrible looking (semi) bluffs or botched blind steal episodes. Probably the former.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably raise the river because the board is so drawless, but a turn raise is ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the idea of raising the river rather than the turn... but calling the river isn't a bad idea, either.

[Yerma]

Hi detruncate,

I've only seen two of your posts on this game, but if the game is as you say, irrespective of the limits, I have some preflop advice for you. Do a little bit of limp-reraising from early. Choose a very few hands, like the red Aces, and the black AQs--it should be enough. Your problem is a matter of style. If, as you say, this has become a blind stealing game, then I suspect that blind stealing has become the uber-profitable way to go because isolation raises are working and the blinds are typically a little too tight. If that's true, then open-raising up front will either steal the blinds or get you in trouble against a solid hand that is playing position on you. Fix your style--make it incorrect for people to play their typical blind-stealing/iso-raising strategies against you while you do it profitably to them.

Also, raise this turn. If he 3-bets then you must play poker.

[detruncate]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi detruncate,

I've only seen two of your posts on this game, but if the game is as you say, irrespective of the limits, I have some preflop advice for you. Do a little bit of limp-reraising from early. Choose a very few hands, like the red Aces, and the black AQs--it should be enough. Your problem is a matter of style. If, as you say, this has become a blind stealing game, then I suspect that blind stealing has become the uber-profitable way to go because isolation raises are working and the blinds are typically a little too tight. If that's true, then open-raising up front will either steal the blinds or get you in trouble against a solid hand that is playing position on you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good suggestion.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, raise this turn. If he 3-bets then you must play poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

You like the turn raise rather than a river raise?

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]

You don't think he donks this fairly often hoping to 3-bet?


[/ QUOTE ]

A .5/1 player? Absolutely not. That's more 10/20 level thinking. I probably wouldn't bet/3-bet trips here either just because most micro players aren't aggressive enough to raise these donkbets.

[detruncate]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You don't think he donks this fairly often hoping to 3-bet?


[/ QUOTE ]

A .5/1 player? Absolutely not. That's more 10/20 level thinking. I probably wouldn't bet/3-bet trips here either just because most micro players aren't aggressive enough to raise these donkbets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps. But given the current state of Empire + the reload there are quite a few people playing .5/1 that wouldn't ordinarily be there. In any case, I think it'd more appropriate when it looks like an attempt to avoid giving a free card, but I'm not ready to completely dismiss it.

[bottomset]

call the turn

river is close, I think I raise most of the time

[Yerma]

[ QUOTE ]
You like the turn raise rather than a river raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a matter of "what does he not want you to do?" If he has it, then you are in trouble no matter what you continue to do in this hand. If he does not have it, but has a little something (medium pocket pair maybe), he would rather see you raise the river than the turn. That's because he may not get to see the river or the showdown if you raise the turn.

WA\WB.

I'm raising the river.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
WA\WB.

I'm raising the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Zuh?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
WA\WB.

I'm raising the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Zuh?

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/blush.gif I meant, if he hesitates for even a milisecond, I'm raising the river.

[detruncate]

Party Poker 0.50/1.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(10 handed)</font>

Preflop: dumbass is UTG+2 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">dumbass raises</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">dumbass bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, dumbass calls.

River: (5.25 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">dumbass raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, dumbass calls.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB.

Results:

BB has Tc Ah (two pairs, aces and tens.)
dumbass has Qd Ad (two pairs, aces and fives.)
BB wins 10.75 BB.

I was unhappy with this hand. The river raise can't be made without a read unless I'm willing to fold to a 3-bet. I haven't been able to make much better than TP for a while and that sometimes leads to me thinking that my opponents aren't any better at hitting the board (or folding when behind).

I'm not thrilled about calling with AT pf if I'm Villain, but it's conceivable that my opponents think I'm every bit as bad as I've been playing.

I would 3-bet that preflop. You cant lay down A10o from the blind from an MP raiser.

[adsman]

I think that I would call the Turn, raise the River and fold to a 3 bet. Tough to do this though. It makes me feel kinda dirty....

[detruncate]

[ QUOTE ]
I would 3-bet that preflop. You cant lay down A10o from the blind from an MP raiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're 3-betting me OOP with ATo when I'm raising UTG+2 I love you a lot unless you're very good post flop.


Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

23,882,374 games 32.203 secs 741,619 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 64.6275 % 62.36% 02.44% { 99+, ATs+, KJs+, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 2: 35.3725 % 33.03% 02.44% { ATo }


---

A call might not be that bad getting 3.5:1, but you're going to be dominated a lot.

It changes some when it comes from LMP-LP, but I'm not likely to be raising particulaly light at a full table from EP.