Shorthanded.pdf chart discussion: Intro

[DavidC]

I'm currently reading through shorthanded.pdf. I don't know who made the chart that I'm reading, or if it's the current version of that chart. However, I'd like to discuss it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

This chart doesn't include blind play.

Next topic: Playing pairs.

Edit: Please feel free to discuss this chart and my interpretations as to why the chart is the way it is.

[DavidC]

The chart is broken up into when you're opening, when there are some limpers, when you're facing a raise, and when you're facing a raise and a reraise. In the unlikely situation that you're facing a cap cold, you're on your own.

---

AA-JJ: Raise until your fingers fall off.

TT and 99: Same, but fold when there's a raise and a re-raise ahead of you.

88-77: Same, but on the button always re-raise when facing a raise, and in MP/CO it's a raise or fold situation when you're facing a raise.

[DavidC]

I understand the AA-JJ.

In the TT-99, where you're facing two raises cold, I'd say that there's a huge chance that you're either a very small favourite or a very big dog. Calling is going to telegraph your hand very clearly, so raising or folding are the two options. You're looking at essentially putting four bets cold into a pot that you're likely to get hurt bad in, there's tons of overcards that will look scary but won't be played aggressively by your opponents, since you capped, and you're pretty much limmited to playing for a free showdown, which blows. I think it's probably a good thing to fold here.

The 88 and 77 are kinda neat, though... I'm curious about why we're re-raising with these hands...

Are we basically trying to get rid of the blinds (which calling won't do) and to punish overcards? We do have a positional advantage that will allow us to win the most and lose the least if we're reading hands well post-flop.

The problem that I see with this, is that it's probably a VERY narrow value raise. Of course, I don't know how to play perfectly post-flop yet (maybe never will) and this will undoubtedly influence my PF decisions, so I'm just taking guesses here, with very little experience to draw on.

What's interesting is that 88-77 is a raise or fold in MP and the CO vs a raise. The question becomes what makes this a fold or a raise? Since we're raising vs 1-2 limpers in any position, it looks like when we raise we raise for value. In keeping with this, I believe that the only reason that we would fold here would be if we were against a tight raiser, who would be much more likely to have us crushed than a standard raiser. However, I speculate that if the raiser had excellent post-flop skill, this would also be a fold.

Edit: Arg... If this were always a raise for value, then wouldn't there be situations where you would fold on the button vs a single raise? If this were true, then wouldn't the chart say that on the button this would be a raise or fold hand, rather than being a re-raise-only hand? Talking it over with AdamL, he says that since this is on the bottom of our re-raising range, we're representing something better than what we have, and we do it for psychological reasons: It's super-important to be able to bluff the other guy out of the pot post-flop if he has something like TT, for example.

So I asked him why it would be a raise-always on the button and a raise or fold on the cut-off, rather than a raise-always in both or a raise or fold in both, and he said, "It's just a chart." /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The only reason I can think this chart would make a difference between the CO and the button would be because the button is an important possession with this hand. If this were the case, then you would fold if the button were really loose and raise if the button were tight?

Also, the chart doesn't include places where there's a raise and two cold-calls to you, where I feel it becomes a clear call.

--Dave.

[DavidC]

The chart suggests folding 66-22 in UTG, and folding 33-22 in MP. Other than that, you should always open. It says if there's 1-2 limpers, you should limp along, inc if you're acting directly after a UTG limper. It suggests folding vs a raise.

[DavidC]

AKs is always raising/capping.

AQs is the same, but folds to a raise and re-raise, unless it's on the button, where it caps.

AJs and ATs always re-raise, but fold to a raise and re-raise.

A9s folds to a raise unless it's onthe button, then it re-raises.

All hands raise in any position (again, not including blinds) vs any number of limpers.

[DavidC]

I'm absolutely completely shocked that AQs would be a fold in the CO and a cap on the button. I can't explain this at all. Is the button really that important? How often will we cap in the CO and have the button cold-call us? Because if the answer to this is that we will be called very seldom, then it would seem to indicate that us capping here is very very marginally +EV (marginal enough that we can't afford to lose the advantage that the button gives us and still remain +EV).

Likewise the re-raising on the button but folding in the CO with A9s (by the way, I really like re-raising with A9s)... it reinforces the theme that the button is of the utmost importance post-flop.

Could someone please take a screenshot of their 6-max stats by position and post it here?

--Dave.

[lautzutao]

there were a lot of mistakes in the original Shorthanded doc that were fixed by various people down the line. I printed out an excel version of this and the error isn't in there. Even if it was I would simply disregard the advice/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Fryguy]

can somebody link/post a current version of the shorthanded chart?

[lautzutao]

Enjoy (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=headsup&Number=1897985 &fpart=1&PHPSESSID=)

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
Enjoy (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=headsup&Number=1897985 &fpart=1&PHPSESSID=)

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you very much. I will!

Also, sorry about attributing that chart to mmbtone.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
Enjoy (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=headsup&Number=1897985 &fpart=1&PHPSESSID=)

[/ QUOTE ]

Um... Okay... for the hands that I've described, this is the same chart. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Crap.

So, I still don't understand it.

However, hopefully they'll have info in the other thread that will explain some of this.

--Dave.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
Enjoy (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=headsup&Number=1897985 &fpart=1&PHPSESSID=)

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, and I'd be hesitant about using the word "Enjoy", particularly if you put an exclamation after it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

It's the new "Haha! [censored] you!" word, after a funny post by Mike from Party Poker.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
Enjoy (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=headsup&Number=1897985 &fpart=1&PHPSESSID=)

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, the differences that I see between the two charts:

-vs one limper, you should now fold K9s on the button
-same with KT and K9
-same with Q9s, Q8s, QJ-Q9

So the differences between the charts are very minor.

However, I'm hoping that the thread you linked to is filled with great info, and I see some very well respected (by me... edit: as well as in-general) posters in that thread, so I figure they're probably talking about something other than the weather in there. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thanks again. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

--Dave.

[lautzutao]

somewhere in that thread is a link to a current version, and a BB defense chart someone worked on or was working on.

[lautzutao]

Never really gave a sh!+ about semantics/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[lautzutao]

To be honest, I don't care for the chart. I enjoyed the archive posts(mostly Guido) on the subject of starting hands. He asked such great, specific questions on particular hands in situations...could probably fill a book with all the "standard" postflop hand posts and preflop scenarios.

And Peter_Rus's blind defense posts are great too.

[bjarne]

[ QUOTE ]
... "It's just a chart." /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I find it hard to use a chart in 6-max. It is so much about playing the other players that what I do preflop (i.e. reraising or folding with a particular hand) depends heavily on the other players and how the particular hands in the sessions have played out so far, whether they have a good understanding of position, etc...

[silencio]

[ QUOTE ]
To be honest, I don't care for the chart. I enjoyed the archive posts(mostly Guido) on the subject of starting hands. He asked such great, specific questions on particular hands in situations...could probably fill a book with all the "standard" postflop hand posts and preflop scenarios.

And Peter_Rus's blind defense posts are great too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you please link to some of these posts ?

Someone already mentioned that the chart (I am using the PDF chart posted in the original SH chart thread) lacks blind play and I am really interested in seeing some recommendations.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To be honest, I don't care for the chart. I enjoyed the archive posts(mostly Guido) on the subject of starting hands. He asked such great, specific questions on particular hands in situations...could probably fill a book with all the "standard" postflop hand posts and preflop scenarios.

And Peter_Rus's blind defense posts are great too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you please link to some of these posts ?

Someone already mentioned that the chart (I am using the PDF chart posted in the original SH chart thread) lacks blind play and I am really interested in seeing some recommendations.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to write a little post called "Searching for Posts". I promise it'll be short.

[xenthebrain]

[ QUOTE ]
and a BB defense chart someone worked on or was working on.

[/ QUOTE ]
I cannot find it. Care to post the link?