i suck. underpairs suck too.

[detruncate]

After losing an ungodly number of bets (a good many of them deservedly), I need to find a way to turn down the suck before I have to do something drastic like get a job.

I'm going to pretend that I don't know anything about poker (which is apparently not far from the truth) and take a little break from drinking to post a few hands. I thought about making a new account to help ensure that I get treated like the fish that I am, but I think I can count on everyone not already in the know to quickly figure out how much I suck at this game and respond accordingly.

Apologies in advance if I make any eyes bleed.


Empire Poker 0.50/1.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(10 handed)</font>

I'm playing .5/1 in the hopes that I'll lose money less quickly. It's only sort of working. I haven't seen too much from Villain. He's played quite a few hands pf so far, and has been passive both pre and post flop. He's also shown an ability to fold (I'd guess he's somewhere around 30-35/&lt;5/0.5 and in the mid 30s WTSD)

Preflop: dumbass is Button with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">dumbass raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 calls.

Tight blinds. Tight table for that matter. Villain is about as good as it gets and I raise to isolate.

Flop: (5.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">dumbass bets</font>, MP3 calls.

It's probable that Villain has caught something once he calls. Either a pair or draw. How's that for pokering? I rule at hand ranges.

Turn: (3.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP3 checks, dumbass ???

I can obviously fold if I'm raised. Villain may or may not bet the river when I'm beaten. Checking is unlikely to induce a bluff.

What's a poor clueless dumbass to do? Or is he in this spot unnecessarily? Should he have folded pf? Called pf? Checked through the flop and hoped for a set? Small pot, but it's on track for the 4-5 BB average.

All suggestions welcome. While well below hero status, dumbass aspires to be a sidekick again some day.

I check behind, and fold to a bet on the river. If villain has a J or Q, you're basically drawing dead, and if the villain only has a draw from the board (i.e. gutshot), he still has a shiatload of outs to beat you. Given that he's called the flop, I don't think you have enough fold equity to fire another shot here, unless you're certain he won't chase down a gutshot to the river. Given that you have no real idea if he has only the gutshot draw, I think you can check and fold to a bet.

I tend to lose money in situations like this because I usually fire again on the turn, and check behind on the river, but don't really consider that everything in the range of hands calling the flop beats me or is drawing big to beat me.

[UATrewqaz]

Bah... ya that hand stinks to high heaven, because no matter what the advice it feels wrong somehow.

I would bet.... you've shown nothing for strength, he might fold a pair of Q or J there, if he has a pair and a draw he's staying in to end...

[Wetdog]

Dear Dumbass,

I too have been enthralled with the 2+2 ideal that fish will fold if you bet till your eyes bleed. It doesn't work that often with bottom pair.

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't seen too much from Villain. He's played quite a few hands pf so far, and has been passive both pre and post flop. He's also shown an ability to fold (I'd guess he's somewhere around 30-35/&lt;5/0.5 and in the mid 30s WTSD)


[/ QUOTE ]

So, if he has a piece he'll call. Otherwise he'll fold. Raise? Out of the question. So, if you have top pair or top 2, bet. Otherwise check.

Save your money for real hands.

Signed,

Brother Dumbass

[Yerma]

Hi detruncate,

If you think that specifically this opponent will call the flop with something like 66 and then fold the turn, then you should probably bet. Or if he might have had Kxs and would call the flop with gutshot but then fold the turn incorrectly, you should bet.

[Disconnected]

This flop is bleh. So, he's slightly loose and pretty passive, meaning there's a buttload of hands that he has here which are ahead of you. I like the pf raise and flop bet. That flop bet is the last money I'm putting in UI, though.

[Aaron W.]

I like the preflop raise and the flop bet.

Check behind and fold on the river if he bets. He might have a king or ten and you're still ahead, but you're most likely beat. Even the fish can drop 95o when the flop comes AQJ.

[detruncate]

One of my current issues is that I'm wasting too many bets. This is a good example. I see an Ace and decide that it's worth firing another barrel. Even though it really doesn't change much considering that Villain is still behind if he was calling with a PP and is very likely to have a draw if he hit the board (and is therefore not folding)


Party Poker 0.50/1.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(10 handed)</font>

Preflop: dumbass is Button with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">dumbass raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">dumbass bets</font>, MP3 calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">dumbass bets</font>, MP3 calls.

River: (5.75 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP3 checks, dumbass checks.

Final Pot: 5.75 BB.

Results:
MP3 has Td Qd (two pairs, aces and queens.)
dumbass has 7h 7d (two pairs, aces and sevens.)
MP3 wins 5.25 BB.


Apparently I had 77 13 times in 900 ish hands this session for a net loss of 6 BB. 3 for 13, not a single bet put in post flop by my opponents with a second best hand, and something like 3-4 BB spewage on my part. Awesome.

[digitalis]

I would of played it like you did.

If the river is a brick then I might bet hoping to fold a better pair + busted straight draw.

I play the same shitty style of poker you do, and have the results to show for it. Keep posting!

[shant]

Give up. Check and fold to a river bet.

[Wally Weeks]

Clearly, dumbass is on a downswing and feeling a tiltish sort of sorry for himself. I know how this goes as I am going though the same irrational crap.

Anyway, in an attempt to look like a dumbass myself I didn't look at the result post nor the replies and will respond blind.

I would do the same for the preflop raise along with the continuation bet out on the flop. The question is what to do on the turn. I think that the best option would be to bet out on the scary A pairing the board since your play up to now indicates a strong hand that may have an A. Obviously, being 3-bet you can easily throw this hand away.

If you get called, you can take a free showdown if your opponent is dumb enough to call down with less than what you have. Don't be surprised to be beaten by a hand with a Q/J as this opponent may not have folded on the river anyway. The question that I'd really ask myself is whether or not this opponent would fold to a river bet not having an A. Mostly likely the answer is "not very often."

[shant]

The A on the turn isn't scary and actually makes your opponent more likely to call down with any pair.

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
The question that I'd really ask myself is whether or not this opponent would fold to a river bet not having an A. Mostly likely the answer is "not very often."

[/ QUOTE ]
If they call that turn and fold the river you had them beat anyway.

[detruncate]

[ QUOTE ]
Clearly, dumbass is on a downswing and feeling a tiltish sort of sorry for himself. I know how this goes as I am going though the same irrational crap.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not irrational considering that dumbass likes to eat and it's getting a little too cold to sleep rough, but I get your point. I don't make a practice of whining about results. This is all about trying to turn things around + inserting lots of self deprecating stuff to help me see the humour in losing a considerable (for me) amount of money + completely losing my game.

Anyway... thanks for you comments.

[Wally Weeks]

That's true, it may or may not be scary.

I think that the context defines whether or not the A pairing the turn is scary. Perhaps if your opponents have seen whether or not you've been raising with high cards plays into this. If your opponent has seen you preflop raising with A-high hands, he may muck a bottom or middle pair HU even.

Either way, I have a hard time not seeing a reason to fire on the turn (given the action up to this point) with position and taking a free showdown regardless of the results. If he checks the turn, he'll have to muck the showdown. Why not fire the turn and give your opponent even a small possibility to muck the turn to take the pot down? And since we are in position we can either muck the river if bet into or take a free showdown to see if we have the best hand.

I think this is the best line. Either way, our opponents will see that we don't always raise or bet into the pot with an A.

[shant]

There is no flush draw on the turn so the only hand you hope to take a free showdown against is a lone K that still has a lot of outs against you, and possibly to get 99 or 88 to fold.

Like I said before, regardless of your raising history, that A on the turn kills your fold equity and increases the chance you get called down by a pair on the board. I think you're wasting a bet if you bet this turn.

[Wally Weeks]

[ QUOTE ]
If they call that turn and fold the river you had them beat anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, that's my point. I've had a few drinks before going to bed so sorry if I'm not complete. I suppose the real question is whether or not a better hand than 77 would muck the river.

Probably not. Betting the river even with position is spewing. But I like the line detruncate did. Perhaps this is because it's exactly how I'd play it. But then again I'm a dumbass, too. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Unite!!

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
I suppose the real question is whether or not a better hand than 77 would muck the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is the question I was answering. Barely any better hands are folding so if you bet and they fold, 77 was good.

[Wally Weeks]

[ QUOTE ]
This is the question I was answering. Barely any better hands are folding so if you bet and they fold, 77 was good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. Now that I look back on it, the only situation you'd get an opponent to fold is if this particular opponent is tight or not. A 30+ VPIP opponent probably wouldn't throw a pair on the board whereas a weak-tight or tight-aggressive player might.

Thanks for helping me clear this up. I should have been using these boards to debate my retardedness long ago. I think I tend to be laggish even if it doesn't merit such play. I wonder if I'm just going through a normal learning curve...

So basically what you're saying is taking the free card on the turn and mucking the river UI if bet into is the best line. I can see that with this opponent.

[Wally Weeks]

[ QUOTE ]
Not irrational considering that dumbass likes to eat and it's getting a little too cold to sleep rough, but I get your point. I don't make a practice of whining about results. This is all about trying to turn things around + inserting lots of self deprecating stuff to help me see the humour in losing a considerable (for me) amount of money + completely losing my game.

Anyway... thanks for you comments.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not trying to be mean or anything, just serious. I've noticed that a lot of my posts tend to be joke ones. Jokes are good. But I have made little to no effort in using these forums to improve my own game. I've lurked since last October but rarely posted anything about hands.

I totally understand where you are coming from, believe me. I built up my bankroll from literally zero, went on a heater the last two months and now I've flatlined. I know that it's a bad run, but I know that I should come to face the facts that I have leaks to plug. What I need is people smacking me in the face with "yeah, buts" and "no, dumbasses" myself.

[milesdyson]

things to consider about betting the turn

1. how often are we ahead? (OP said he seemed somewhat logical - he is probably not calling the flop without a gutshot or pair)
2. how many outs does he have when we are ahead? (usually 10)
3. would this type of player bluff the river if we check the turn? (i don't think so - i don't even think he'd bet a J).

if we did the hand ranges, i'm pretty sure it'd come out to us with less than 50% equity on the turn. and since he won't bet us off of the winning hand on the river, i don't see the point in trying for a free showdown.

This thread has a thousand replies already and no doubt the 'correct' play has already been determined. But before reading these I thought I'd give it a shot (reading replies I normally agree with 1 or more of them and then find no need to say anything - hmmm, is the term grunching appropriate here?)

My first thought is don't be so down on yrself! If your feeling bad about the way your playing then tighten up, be less agressive. That'll save some bets and won't exagerate any downswing you might be having. After a few wins you'll think damn, I shoulda raised there and you'll feel a warm glowing warming glow about your play when you do.

On the hand specifically, you give a good reason based on a read to raise PF so fair enough (I wouldn't do it but I'm pretty weak).

I think a check on the flop is better. Villian could check-call holding a queen, jack or even a weak ace. Chances are he has one of them. You get little information from the bet and really are just hoping for a fold. If you have the best hand at the flop you'll probably have the best hand at the river, so I'd check.

Turn, again I'd check and snap off a bluff at the river - or else check it there again.

[POKhER]

Gee i ditch it on the flop, Call me weaktight but why fight over small pots when you hold crap?!

Oh and your avatar is fecking sick if thats a train chrash... Cant you change it to a sexy girl?

[digitalis]

The mistake I would make in this hand is trying to get villian to fold a Q or J on the river, if the board looks favorable.

I need to realize that most opponents aren't going to fold a pair HU.