If God exists...

First lets suppose that God does exist. Next lets suppose that God is all good. I happen to believe both the above. If these two statements are true then I don't believe that hell exists. At least not an eternal hell. How could a loving, forgiving god, allow for someone to suffer in hell?

Your thoughts...

[spaminator101]

Um, why dont you read your Bible and come back to me on that one

Lets not fall back on the bible...

[Trantor]

[ QUOTE ]
First lets suppose that God does exist. Next lets suppose that God is all good. I happen to believe both the above. If these two statements are true then I don't believe that hell exists. At least not an eternal hell. How could a loving, forgiving god, allow for someone to suffer in hell?

Your thoughts...

[/ QUOTE ]

The supposed paradox arises from the fact that _you_ are attempting to say what is good having, in your premises, stated that God exists and He is all good. If He creates hell then that simply means that according to God's "morality" hell is not bad. You may think it is bad but it is not by your premises.

That is what faith is all about. Believing something even if irrational or seeming incomprhensible. Once you believe God can do nothing but good you have to accept all he does is good even if you don't like it.

If Hell does exist then I believe God is not all good.

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First lets suppose that God does exist. Next lets suppose that God is all good. I happen to believe both the above.

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What evidence do you have that a supreme creator must be all "good"? Certainly his creations may give one pause.

[spaminator101]

God is all good but he doesn't let sin go unpunnished

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God is all good but he doesn't let sin go unpunnished

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Ah, you must also have taken this course!

PSYCH 306 -- The Psychology of Supreme Beings
Credit: 4 hours
Terms: Fall/Spring
Description: In this course, students will learn the basics of supreme being psychology, to include their needs, wants, moral code, and anger responses. Emphasis will be on omnipotent, omniscient universe-creating gods, but other heavenly spirits will also be discussed. Course includes a lab in which students will conduct a video interview of a real supreme being and create a personality profile.

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What evidence do you have that a supreme creator must be all "good"? Certainly his creations may give one pause.

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That's why I said "Lets suppose"

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What evidence do you have that a supreme creator must be all "good"? Certainly his creations may give one pause.

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That's why I said "Lets suppose"

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Which you followed with "I happen to believe both the above."

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What evidence do you have that a supreme creator must be all "good"? Certainly his creations may give one pause.

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That's why I said "Lets suppose"

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Which you followed with "I happen to believe both the above."

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True... but that doesn't change my question. You're switching topics.

[spaminator101]

howd u know. lol

[chezlaw]

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If Hell does exist then I believe God is not all good.

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That's right. No rational person who has your (and mine)sense of right and wrong can believe in a good god who creates hell (infinite punishment).

chez

[RJT]

If God does not exist, then what is the difference between what we think of what we call hell and life in prison (or capital punishment even more so)? for say rape, kidnapping or murder. Isn't the punishment a bit extreme then?

[purnell]

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If God does not exist, then what is the difference between what we think of what we call hell and life in prison (or capital punishment even more so)? for say rape, kidnapping or murder. Isn't the punishment a bit extreme then?

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Mostly the part about the fire and brimstone. But prison isn't really for punishment, it's for the protection of the peaceful and honest folks.

I agree, especially considering the fact that he supposedly made us flawed to begin with. No loving god could punish someone forever, and no kind-hearted believer should feel content with the idea of basking in the comforts of heaven while others are burning in hell for eternity.

Maybe a little payback for justice reasons, but fire and brimstone for eternity? Whenever you throw eternity into the equation, it is ridiculous overkill as punishment no matter what the crime.

[RJT]

Given your assumptions - you want Hitler and Stalin hanging out with the rest of us?

[chunk]

[ QUOTE ]
First lets suppose that God does exist. Next lets suppose that God is all good. I happen to believe both the above. If these two statements are true then I don't believe that hell exists. At least not an eternal hell. How could a loving, forgiving god, allow for someone to suffer in hell?

Your thoughts...

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe there's ONLY hell and we DESERVE it. This would satisfy both of your assumptions.

[r3vbr]

why discuss this... we all know the concept of good god and hell cannot coexist.. it's either one thats wrong, or the other, or both.

[Bataglin]

lol /images/graemlins/grin.gif

That's why catholics invented purgatory: it's hell (in the form of a really long line) but without all the demons.

kind of a damnation lite. all the punishment, half the guilt.

[Trantor]

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why discuss this... we all know the concept of good god and hell cannot coexist.. it's either one thats wrong, or the other, or both.

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Nope. It could also be that your understanding of "good" is not correct (ie is not in accord with the good God has defined).

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Lets not fall back on the bible...

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Please define "God" without using the Bible.

[mike4bmp]

Why does society punish its criminals? Why does a mother/father spank their child when they do something wrong? Why is there karma? You reap what you sow....Cartesian principle of action/reaction...just on a grander scale in this case. Everything has a polar opposite.....barring Subjectivistic views of course....you can call it God, Karma, Tao or whatever you want but everything has a balance.
Evil in general is destructive...from a Western point of view anyways....So the source of evil will always be diminished in the end to bring back balance. You have a serial killer who pleads guilty...you execute them...no more killing done by that person...simply the natural laws of retribution.
I do not subscribe to the notion that God lets anyone burn in hell that does not believe in him/her...but I do feel that everyone will be judged according to how they have conducted themselves....and there will probably be a lot more religious people burning in hell then atheist or agnostic...in particular Evangelical/Fundamentalist Christians and fanatical Muslims....IMO...

[SonofJen]

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That's right. No rational person who has your (and mine)sense of right and wrong can believe in a good god who creates hell (infinite punishment).


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Why not? I see this issue (omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god + hell = seemingly incompatible set) as simply an extension of the problem of evil (omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god + world with evil = seemingly incompatible set). But, it seems like to deal with one is to deal with the other. Nameley, it all comes down to free will. The good inherent in free will trumps the good that comes from an all-loving deterministic world free from sin and evil (and hell). And on a different but still interesting note if you believe in angels (and since we're talking about heaven, hell and god, belief in angels isn't too much of a stretch here) then if God can give humans free will to commit evils than why not give angels free will to commit evils or hell or hells. God can still maintain omnibenevolence due to the intrinsic and untrumpable value of free will.

[TomBrooks]

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Lets not fall back on the bible...

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Please define "God" without using the Bible.

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You make it sound like the Bible is the only scripture in the world.

[Piers]

[ QUOTE ]
First lets suppose that God does exist. Next lets suppose that God is all good. I happen to believe both the above. If these two statements are true then I don't believe that hell exists. At least not an eternal hell. How could a loving, forgiving god, allow for someone to suffer in hell?

Your thoughts...

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you need to make the extra assumption of all-powerful. Whereupon your statement that hell cannot exist is really an extension of your definition of all-good.

Then what you are really saying becomes, “if an all powerful being existed that could not allow eternal hell to exist, then eternal hell would not exist.” In which case I would tend to agree with you.

[SNOWBALL138]

"Next lets suppose that God is all good."

Here's were you went wrong. God is the biggest a$$hole in the universe. Want proof? I recommend you study up on http://www.jaypinkerton.com/backofthebible.html

sorry, my javascript is acting bad so I can't give you a cool looking link.

[AAAA]

Try this one for size.

God didn't create hell. God created, among other things, humans with free will so S/He wouldn't be alone. Without free will, humans couldn't be trusted to choose to be companions for God. (The admiration and companionship of slaves or pets is always suspect, as they have little choice about their circumstances)

Humans with free will created hell through their belief that they were responsible for the actions of other human beings, or as a result of their unahppiness with the natural consequences of some of their choices.

Judgment is Mine, sayeth the Lord might be more than just God claiming the right to judge us. Perhaps S/He is not planning on judging us, as warning us not to judge others, or even ourselves, because judgment of anyone else has no use. Judgment stifles the choices of individuals who always create their own karma, based on natural consequences of behaviors.

Perhaps everyone should live the life they choose freely, knowing they have absolutely no effect on others except as others allow and accept the situation. In other words, the only one we can really affect is ourself, so we have no impact on anyone unless they choose to accept our actions into their reality. Everything else is just illusionary.

The only one we are responsible for is ourself and even then evaluation and correction is more useful than castigation and damnation. Hell is a waste of time!

[Lestat]

<font color="red"> how could a loving, forgiving god, allow for someone to suffer in hell? </font>

I don't know. How could a loving God allow an innocent child to suffer and die from cancer?

It must be nice going through the world picking and choosing your beliefs at will without any need for basis.

I think I'll believe in God. I think I'll believe he's a good God. But I don't think I'll believe in hell. That's just too unpleasant. I think I'll believe in marmalade skies and...