KK hand in SB - 25 NL, good sized pot.

[flyangler]

2nd orbit where everyone but me is playing nearly every hand. I just won a hand out of the BB with A, 10 off with a half sized pot bet on the flop.

PokerRoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG ($9.70)
MP ($26.10)
Button ($10.65)
SB ($28.35)
BB ($69.45)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K /images/graemlins/spade.gif, K /images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls $0.25, MP calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.25</font>, BB calls $0.90, calls $0.90, MP calls $0.90, Button calls $0.90.

Flop: ($5.60) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $3</font>, BB calls $3, UTG calls $3, MP calls $3, Button folds.

Turn: ($17.60) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $18</font>, BB folds, UTG calls $5.55 (All-In), MP calls $18.

River: ($59.15) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 1 all-in)</font>
Hero?

[xorbie]

You have like $4 more. What does it even matter, as long as you don't fold.

[slydeni]

ya know...

i hate spots like this. I never know whether to push here or check. with the loose-ness of teh table, it seems reasonable that anything from 2 pair, to the strait is possible (hopefully the back door flush did not get you). you do only have around $6 left, so you cant fold... but a bet is not gonna make him fold anything worse than you i doubt. so id prolly check here and call obviously if he bets. one fo them may have a set...but it smells like 2 pair.

lemmie know
sly

[kongo_totte]

On a loose table with that many limpersm I am making it atleast 10-12BB from the SB.

push for your last few cents, if he's decent he's gonna do it for you anyway no matter what he has.

Isn't this an argument for just chucking the rest of his money in there? If hes behind someone will bet and he's definately losing the rest, and if he's ahead he'll definately be paid off, so might as well get it in and pray.

[flyangler]

[ QUOTE ]
On a loose table with that many limpersm I am making it atleast 10-12BB from the SB.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was wondering what you guys would have to say about the PF Raise. I felt that I could outplay these guys postflop with a big pair and wanted to milk the pot a little, I also felt that a 4xbb raise was appropriate given my position, so I would not be uncomfortable getting away from the hand if need be postflop.

I bet the pot on the turn expecting the one caller from UTG since he only had 5.00 or so left. I did not expect the call from the MP guy.

River: ($59.15) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 1 all-in)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets $3.95 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls $3.95.

Final Pot: $67.05
UTG has 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (high card, ten).
MP has 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (flush, ten high).
Hero has K /images/graemlins/spade.gif, King /images/graemlins/heart.gif (pair of Kings)
Outcome: MP wins $67.05.

[kongo_totte]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On a loose table with that many limpersm I am making it atleast 10-12BB from the SB.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was wondering what you guys would have to say about the PF Raise. I felt that I could outplay these guys postflop with a big pair and wanted to milk the pot a little, I also felt that a 4xbb raise was appropriate given my position, so I would not be uncomfortable getting away from the hand if need be postflop.

I bet the pot on the turn expecting the one caller from UTG since he only had 5.00 or so left. I did not expect the call from the MP guy.

River: ($59.15) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 1 all-in)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets $3.95 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls $3.95.

Final Pot: $67.05
UTG has 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (high card, ten).
MP has 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (flush, ten high).
Hero has K /images/graemlins/spade.gif, King /images/graemlins/heart.gif (pair of Kings)
Outcome: MP wins $67.05.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you mean you can "outplay" a field of donks with an unimproved over pair OOP? The way to get these guys money is making a real raise, expect 2 callers, and there won't be many decisions to make post-flop.

[flyangler]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you mean you can "outplay" a field of donks with an unimproved over pair OOP? The way to get these guys money is making a real raise, expect 2 callers, and there won't be many decisions to make post-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am definitely not saying it was the right play, I was just explaining my reasoning at the time.
My thoughts:
I thought I could push them off at the turn on an uncoordinated board with a big bet and not have to even go to a showdown. The bets they were trading in the first orbit were 2-3 bucks at the most and there was lots of folding on the turn. These seemed to be classic weak type players, playing lots of hands but folding to aggression, unless they had any piece of the flop. This seemed like an opportunity to grow the pot without giving away my hand- a perfect situation for a big pair (or so I thought).

Would you advise always playing big pairs fast? I tend to think so, in general, but I am fairly new to NL and playing fast here is not the same as in limit. Is 12xBB your normal opening strategy in this type of situation (big pair OOP)? Any thoughts would be helpful. Thanks.

More importantly, you should have raised for more preflop. And you should bet the full pot on the Flop.

KK is nice, but vs 5 other players you're not favored. Make them pay to chase.

By the river, in your line, may as well put the money in. Its too big of a pot.

I also don't like the Turn bet, but I don't like checking either. OOP with an overpair is hard. You have to wonder which of the four is sandbagging or drawing or just calling with any random pair, lol

[flyangler]

Didn't my plan work out to perfection (until the river diamond /images/graemlins/tongue.gif) though? I got two players to put (essentially) all their money in, and I had the best hand (at the time). Without the lame river card, it worked out exactly as I had hoped. Donks calling down with draws and small pairs against my Kings. (Trying not to be results oriented here.)

Yeah, you got some money in with the best hand... but you still let too many people play the pot with you. You're not favored vs the entire field, and if you win vs the entire field, really... you got lucky.

Thin the field man! After thinking, I think the turn is better. If you bet $18 there, you're going all in on the river anyways right?

I'd rather win a small pot with KK then play a big pot 5 handed Out of Position.

[mason55]

[ QUOTE ]

I am definitely not saying it was the right play, I was just explaining my reasoning at the time.
My thoughts:
I thought I could push them off at the turn on an uncoordinated board with a big bet and not have to even go to a showdown. The bets they were trading in the first orbit were 2-3 bucks at the most and there was lots of folding on the turn. These seemed to be classic weak type players, playing lots of hands but folding to aggression, unless they had any piece of the flop. This seemed like an opportunity to grow the pot without giving away my hand- a perfect situation for a big pair (or so I thought).


[/ QUOTE ]

This does not make sense. The way you get money from players who call too much is by betting when you have a good hand, not making them fold. They will give you their money when you bet big preflop with the kings. They will give you their money with they flop TP on a Qxx board. If your plan is to push them around then you dont' need KK to do it.