Flat Calling Raises with Kings Preflop

[lapoker17]

I do this a lot.

I like doing this.

I nearly always reraise w AA, but Kings feel different - It's some psychological thing maybe.

I seem to make pretty good money when I do this.

My poker friends tell me I'm stupid.

Discuss.

[riverboatking]

i've given this a lot of consideration and i've come up with the absolute answer that cannot be disputed:
it depends.


/images/graemlins/grin.gif

ps. didn't make it to commerce on wed. was playing the
25-50 at the bike.
how'd you do?

[Percula]

[ QUOTE ]
ps. didn't make it to commerce on wed. was playing the
25-50 at the bike.
how'd you do?

[/ QUOTE ]

Where you on the live at the bike webcast then?

[IRV]

Depending on my image, # of limpers, stack size, I'll do the same.

[rid.br]

I like flat calling raises with KK when i'm on EP or early MP, LP i always re-raise, because opponents may think i'm on a steal or something. And i do re-raise LP with some hands that are not premium too.

Basically i think is good re-raising for protection and for value.

[lapoker17]

It depends is not a valid answer here, but I figured that's what I would get, smartass.

I do this against lots of different player types in lots of situations - I'm really comfortable doing it and playing it after the flop.

Whatever.

I've had a room there all week and have been playing tons - I'm ahead and have played some sick hands. I'm there most of the weekend too. We'll catch up.

[fsuplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
andhave played some sick hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

post some please.

im itching to play live.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

do you reraise AK or QQ... because if you only reraise with AA doesn't that make you... readable?

[Percula]

I do it a lot too.

As a general rule I find that it hides power of my hand well from thinking players that would not normally play me off if I had RR PR.

[lapoker17]

Here's the thing. Most online guys are obsessed with this type of stuff - as they should be. They play 9,000,000 hands with the same people and have all of this data at their fingertips. It's incredibly important to vary their play. I play in LA - at 2 or 3 different clubs in 2-3 different levels of game with tons of tables and must moves etc... My history with most players is either brief or nonexistent, and most of them don't notice anything anyway. I'm comfortable playing after the flop. I rarely reraise PF at all - It could totally be a leak, but I don't know, it's just how I roll. And I don't feel like I'm giving up much in the games I play.

From a data-focused perspective this, I know, seems flawed, but live play (in LA) has little to do with data - at least for someone like me who does not play the same game everyday, all the time.

Dissenters can bring it.

[riverboatking]

[ QUOTE ]
Where you on the live at the bike webcast then?

[/ QUOTE ]

its were not where.
but yes i was.
seat 9.

[Percula]

[ QUOTE ]
its were not where.
but yes i was.
seat 9.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thought so when you posted.

When I watched I kept thinking is this one of the LA posters, you and LApoker came to mind, maybe El D.

Nice game, hope to see you back again.

[lapoker17]

I don't want to start threads with these, because they're not strategically that interesting, but here are some hands:

4 handed, waiting to move to one of the main tables. 4 of us all just sat down 2 hands ago - we each have about 2000.

I raise to 80 on the button w K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Floater in SB calls, pretty good gambooler in BB calls. 3 to the flop.

J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Checked to me. I bet $200, SB calls, Gambooler min raises to $400.

I move in, BOTH CALL.

She has nut flush draw (oops), he has J8o (the BEST HAND). We run it twice and chop up floater's money when I spike one of my 5 outs on the river - a Ten - after an Ace hits on the turn.

Very good LAGGish player (and good guy)(3K) opens for $70 on the button. I (2k)call in SB w J /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif. I flop the joint, he flops top set. Over 3 streets, I get all the money.

A few hands later. He raises smallish out of the blinds with K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif I call after limping w 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif. I flop bottom set, he flops pair + flush draw, we get it all in on the flop. he wins and doubles up.

2 hands later he raises to $70 on the Button w A /images/graemlins/spade.gif A /images/graemlins/club.gif, I again call in SB w/ J /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif I flop open ender - hit on the turn and play it really fast - he doubles me up. As good a player as he is, he psychologically couldn't believe that I could have J9 again in nearly the exact situation - it was pretty bizarre. This all went down in like 15 minutes. The rest of the table thought we were insane.

Good times.

[Garland]

I don't like losing the opportunity to give opponents to call a re-raises preflop with vastly inferior hands. Whenever I re-raise with AA or KK, I seem to get a caller(s). Then flop goes I bet they fold 90% of the time. If my opponents are gambling type players, I love to make them pay for raising hands such as AJs, ATs, their eyes seem to light up and can't call fast enough for the chance to bust a big stack, even if they know the odds are heavily against them.

In addition, if you're only reraising with AA, then you become extremely readable. Perhaps you're reraising other hands to compensate.

Garland

[whitelime]

I like it too. I feel like with AA, because so many people are unable to fold KK preflop, you have a chance at an all-in as an 80-20 favorite.

[coltrane]

[ QUOTE ]
I do this a lot.



[/ QUOTE ]

I do it a lot too - it's almost always a function of stack size.....and having said that, I flat call preflop raises with aces more than most too....I don't reraise preflop very often either - especially when I'm out of position and really deep......I like to play poker....

[Kirkrrr]

"I don't reraise preflop very often either - especially when I'm out of position..."

Hmm... I take the opposite approach and tend to re-raise harder when I'm OOP since I know that my options will be limited post flop.

In position I'll usually just call a LP open raiser and reraise EP raisers.

Kirk

[soah]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like losing the opportunity to give opponents to call a re-raises preflop with vastly inferior hands. Whenever I re-raise with AA or KK, I seem to get a caller(s). Then flop goes I bet they fold 90% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

In this case, might it be more profitable to get less money in preflop while allowing your opponents to overplay their weaker hands postflop? If they are always folding then the fact that you have AA/KK is irrelevent.

A while back Sklansky wrote an article for the 2+2 magazine where he said that if it's limped to you in the big blind you should occassionally raise huge with utter trash like Q6o because once you make a huge raise like that, the hand will almost never go to showdown. So under the right circumstances you can make more money running a pure bluff than by playing out the hand normally. But with cards that have a chance of flopping something (I'm not necessarily referring to big pairs here), you'd do better to just take a flop and get paid if you make a hand. Essentially the EV of raising huge and representing AA is x, almost regardless of what cards you have, and the EV of checking changes a lot based upon your cards.

This is not quite the same situation as reraising preflop, but the principles are similar: why waste only premium hands to make people fold? As I recall, this concept is also discussed in TPFAP... basically saying you should reraise preflop with premium hands you want to get all-in with, and with complete trash that has no other value besides bluffing equity. But some hands you should just call with because they aren't strong enough to be all-in preflop, yet can still be played profitably.

I realize I've sorta contradicted myself amongst the various points I've been making, but this post is just a collection of various thoughts that came into my head which seem to go together.

[fsuplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
"I don't reraise preflop very often either - especially when I'm out of position..."

Hmm... I take the opposite approach and tend to re-raise harder when I'm OOP since I know that my options will be limited post flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

i think coltrane means when the money is real deep, like maybe 250+BB, where if you raise pf, yoiu prob arent getting much more than 10-12bb's in , and your hand is sometimes very transparent to other players, and they have the odds to bust you.

with 50-150bb's, im almost always reraisin g OOP.

[riverboatking]

[ QUOTE ]
I flat call preflop raises with aces more than most too....I don't reraise preflop very often either - especially when I'm out of position and really deep......I like to play poker....

[/ QUOTE ]

its not always a question of "playing poker" its often a question of building the pot so that you have an oppertunity to win a big pot.

if you never build a pot preflop you will find it very difficult to win a big pot with AA because if you play a big pot most of the time you'll be behind.

for example, you and villian have >200BB, villian raises w/ KK-1010 and you just smoothcall, even if the board comes ragged undercards you can't extract that much from a good player because they will be fearful of the set.

of course it helps to know your player, but not re-raising w/AA when you're pretty sure your opponent has a big pair as well can often lead to missed value.

that being said i have used the flat-call of the raise w/AA on several occassions to win big pots...however it doesn't work often when the opponent is decent and deep.

[kagame]

if you go set over set or set v tp you dont need to have built a big pot preflop to win a monster, and this is alot easier if they cant put you on a big pair

[Ulysses]

sometimes i feel like a nut, sometimes i don't.

[riverboatking]

[ QUOTE ]
if you go set over set or set v tp you dont need to have built a big pot preflop to win a monster, and this is alot easier if they cant put you on a big pair

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah because the odds are really good that you'll both flop a set.
and i don't know who you're playing with whose willing to play for >200BB with just top pair or overpair.

[Rick Nebiolo]

I've enjoyed lurking this thread but tonight a hand came up in what I think is your second favorite LA casino where an opponent cold called a raise with KK. Here's what happended.

I make a standard open raise UTG+1 with AQ suited. Weak player UTG+1 calls with what turns out to be KK. About seventeen other players call. Flop comes all middle connected cards with two of one suit. I check and later fold to substantial action. Weak player bets of all of her stacks off post flop when she was virtually drawing dead.

Anyway, cold calling with KK is a decent change up but you need to play decently post flop. You do, donk on my left didn't /images/graemlins/smile.gif

~ Rick

[Double Down]

I reraise with kk preflop for a couple reasons.

1. I like to know where I'm at and want to get it all in there preflop. I have laid down kings a few times preflop when I KNEW that the guy had aces, and I could not have done this unless I reopened the action preflop. Let's say you call and the flop comes with jack or queen high. You have no idea if you're way ahead or behind. Let's say the flop comes with an ace. If you are ahead (and he has jacks, queens, etc.) then it will be hard to get a lot more money in there. And that's if he doesn't bet you off of it first.
If you isolate, it's a lot easier to call a large bet on a rag flop if it's just you and him, and not if there are 4 or 5 players. Overall, there are too many sticky situations that you can get into on the flop with kings and imo, the time to get money in with kings is preflop.

2. Someone else touched upon this. If there is no strength shown preflop but rather after the flop, then you probably have a couple of hands going up against each other that are at least 2 pair. If you just call your kings and then start betting big after the flop, your opponents will probably be worried about you having 2 pair. This is why I also raise good hands in the blinds, because if I didn't and my action is big on the flop then people have me pegged as flopping 2 pair or better, and if they won't pay me off with a worse hand than a big pocket pair, then they definitely won't want to get into it with me if they think that I have better than that.

It's okay to let your strength be known by raising because
a)You will protect your hand
b)You are getting value for it
c)The way your opponents react to it will define THEIR hands.

And even if you reraise, there will be enough mediocre players hanging on to AQ, AJ, KQ, QQ, and other pocket pairs to make it worth it.

[coltrane]

rbk,

I agree with most of what you're saying, disagree with some - I think we're mostly eye to eye here.....the main point I'm making is that if I'm playing really deep and especially if against good players, whatever it is that I do preflop I like to do with MANY hands.....to me there's no greater detriment than giving away my hand on an early street when there's a lot of money left to bet.....having said that, since I generally don't like to build big preflop pots out of position with A LOT of hands, I often don't do it with aces either.....of course, sometimes I might (like you said) - i.e. if I think my opponent also has a big pair or if I can bet 15-20% of my opponent's stack or I've been speeding around and I think my opponent might go off because he thinks I'm getting fresh, etc. etc. etc. ......

[Kirkrrr]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I don't reraise preflop very often either - especially when I'm out of position..."

Hmm... I take the opposite approach and tend to re-raise harder when I'm OOP since I know that my options will be limited post flop.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



i think coltrane means when the money is real deep, like maybe 250+BB, where if you raise pf, yoiu prob arent getting much more than 10-12bb's in , and your hand is sometimes very transparent to other players, and they have the odds to bust you.

with 50-150bb's, im almost always reraisin g OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough, but with stacks that deep my raising hand range pre-flop is FAR greater than AA/KK... basically it's down to 2,5s. My opponents know this, and know that I know they know this, so nothing is transparent. But that's a little outside the scope of OP's question.

Kirk

[DcifrThs]

why would you always want to do anything?

Barron

[Dr. Strangelove]

[ QUOTE ]
why would you always want to do anything?

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

because jessica alba is just that hot

[lapoker17]

Interesting Development on the flat calling with Kings front.

Commerce 10/20 on Friday.

I ($3000) open for $100 in LMP w 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Rock ($2200) calls in CO. (For those who play this game, he's the older Italian gentleman with a prosthetic arm, who plays pretty tight, but also seems to have really bad timing when he rarely tries to make a move, or mix it up). Anyway.

Heads up. Flop comes 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet $160. He calls.

Turn 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I bet $370. He moves in, I call.

He has KK. I would like to reiterate that I think flat calling PF w Kings is great.

[arod15]

Your stupid you should almost always raise....

[SCfuji]

[ QUOTE ]
I like to know where I'm at

[/ QUOTE ]
pardon me for being rude but you have the second best hand in poker.