The Sucker Project 2.0

[stupidsucker]

Original post (SP 1.0) (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3665216&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)
It begins!!!

I will now unveil an account sn I have kept secret from the forum.

Dust off your skin accounts and sweat my maiden set.

presenting
p0t_commit3d

[stupidsucker]

Trny:16456138
Level:1 Blinds(10/15)
Table 35064
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: JazzBass04 ( $785 )
Seat 2: Mimmul ( $800 )
Seat 3: Dinda1 ( $860 )
Seat 4: bmrpoker ( $800 )
Seat 5: Yumie ( $800 )
Seat 6: shortfuse25 ( $785 )
Seat 7: malicous ( $800 )
Seat 8: likkerman_1 ( $800 )
Seat 9: ACJ777 ( $785 )
Seat 10: P0t_Commit3d ( $785 )
Trny:16456138 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to P0t_Commit3d [ Ks As ]
Dinda1 folds.
bmrpoker folds.
Yumie folds.
shortfuse25 folds.
malicous raises [70].
likkerman_1 folds.
ACJ777 folds.
P0t_Commit3d raises [125].

right away I am hit with a spot I hate. I min popped him back because I wanted to invest as little as possible, but still showing a lot of strength.

My other options are:
cold call.. I dont mind this with AKs, but I hate going to the flop with great position with a great hand without the lead.

Push- I have done this many times here. I stopped because I thought it may be a leak. Is it a leak at the 11s?

Fold- This isnt really an option at all.

JazzBass04 folds.
Mimmul folds.
malicous calls [55].

** Dealing Flop ** [ 3s, Ah, Ts ]

What an awesome flop...
malicous checks.

Now .. What I want here is automatic plays... not the perfect play with reads and such.

I stalled a little and bet a small amount trying to get action from him.

My other options are.

Check-slowplay- Why not? Well I like this, because my hand is great with the nut draw. I went for the small bet instead.

Push.. I like this if I think my opponent will call. I made it clear preflop I may have a monster. I don't think pushing here is better then a small bet or a free card.

>You have options at Table 35055 Table!.
P0t_Commit3d bets [75].
malicous folds.
P0t_Commit3d does not show cards.
P0t_Commit3d wins 350 chips

Ok no more posting hands while I am still playing..Just trying to wet your appetite.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
right away I am hit with a spot I hate. I min popped him back because I wanted to invest as little as possible, but still showing a lot of strength.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there's leak #1. The flop will miss you 60%+ of the time and people at the 11's like calling. What is the point of this? Just push, KJ will call.

[ QUOTE ]
cold call.. I dont mind this with AKs, but I hate going to the flop with great position with a great hand without the lead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? What's wrong with not having the lead?

** Dealing Flop ** [ 3s, Ah, Ts ]

Either he has an ace and will call a bigger bet than 75, or he has no ace and will not call anything. Just check and give him a freebie if you feel like slowplaying, half his outs make you the nuts anyway.

[YourFoxyGrandma]

In this situation, I think I check and see if you can get him to bet the turn. There are very few cards on the turn that are bad for you, if any, and with your reraise preflop, I don't think he's calling with alot of hands.

[stupidsucker]

Well, there's leak #1. The flop will miss you 60%+ of the time and people at the 11's like calling. What is the point of this? Just push, KJ will call.

Ok so pushing AKs here is the best thing to do hands down?

my thought process was that I could make a c- bet on the flop and take it down when the flop misses him 60%+.

Or destory his Ax when he bets into me on an ace flop.


** Dealing Flop ** [ 3s, Ah, Ts ]

Either he has an ace and will call a bigger bet than 75, or he has no ace and will not call anything.

OK I dont understand this at all about low limit players. And forgive me.. I am not saying you are wrong I just dont understand.

You have made arguments now that my opponent will be tight when he needs to be on the flop, but preflop he will be a wild man. But you have also said that a lead with a c-bet isnt going to work.. why?

Either my opponent is going to be too loose too tight or just right.

OK... I have to stop here so I can concentrate on my games...
down to 3 tables.. I got AK again on this same table, pushed. AT called and 4flushed me... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[JudoGirl]

[ QUOTE ]
right away I am hit with a spot I hate. I min popped him back because I wanted to invest as little as possible, but still showing a lot of strength.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe this is a leak in my game. I usually call here and then take action based on the flop and my opponents play. If the flop misses me and he checks, I'm betting about 1/2 the pot. If it misses me and he bets out, I likely fold as I still have chips and time. If it hits me and he bets, I raise to as much as I think he will call.

[ QUOTE ]

** Dealing Flop ** [ 3s, Ah, Ts ]

What an awesome flop...
malicous checks.

Now .. What I want here is automatic plays... not the perfect play with reads and such.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know that I like the slowplay at the 11's. I bet 1/2 the pot here, the same as I'll do if it misses me and he checks to me. You've shown a lot of strength preflop and with the A on the board he will call you on the flop if he is going to call you at all. And if he is going to call, he'll likely call 1/2 the pot if he is going to call 75.

[JudoGirl]

[ QUOTE ]


** Dealing Flop ** [ 3s, Ah, Ts ]

Either he has an ace and will call a bigger bet than 75, or he has no ace and will not call anything.

OK I dont understand this at all about low limit players. And forgive me.. I am not saying you are wrong I just dont understand.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is one of the common weaknesses at the lower levels (e.g. 11's). 1st, they have a hard time letting go of pretty cards; 2nd, they hate to be bluffed. That's why there are so many bad beats at the Party 11's.

[ QUOTE ]

OK... I have to stop here so I can concentrate on my games...
down to 3 tables.. I got AK again on this same table, pushed. AT called and 4flushed me... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You should be concentrating on your game and making posts during post game analysis...

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
OK I dont understand this at all about low limit players. And forgive me.. I am not saying you are wrong I just dont understand.

You have made arguments now that my opponent will be tight when he needs to be on the flop, but preflop he will be a wild man. But you have also said that a lead with a c-bet isnt going to work.. why?

[/ QUOTE ]

PF, they'll call gigantic amounts of chips with almost any two cards that look pretty. When an ace hits an otherwise pretty raggedy board, however, even an idiot is going to fold his K8o. Let them catch up.

[stupidsucker]

this set is a perfect example of everything that goes wrong with my games.

Long HU game going on.
edit.. I managed to pull a 1st out of my ass in the last game.

I felt I made +EV plays for the most part in almost every single situation. Perfect? no no.

I will be posting all 4 tournies for review in entirety.

Show me why my roi is less the 5% at the 22s and 33s over the last couple k SngS... It is not that I don't believe it. I just don't understand it anymore. All I see are beats and monsters.

[johnnybeef]

This may be the easiest hand in the world to double up with in an 11. Usually players at the 11s fall into two categories, shitforbrain lags, or lathargic calling stations. Against a lag you should underbet the pot (around 1/3) in order to show weakness. Most of the time they will push overtop of you against a calling station, i will usually overbet the pot if there is any type of draw out. As they are usually calling you down to the river.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
right away I am hit with a spot I hate. I min popped him back because I wanted to invest as little as possible, but still showing a lot of strength.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there's leak #1. The flop will miss you 60%+ of the time and people at the 11's like calling. What is the point of this? Just push, KJ will call.

[ QUOTE ]
cold call.. I dont mind this with AKs, but I hate going to the flop with great position with a great hand without the lead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? What's wrong with not having the lead?

** Dealing Flop ** [ 3s, Ah, Ts ]

Either he has an ace and will call a bigger bet than 75, or he has no ace and will not call anything. Just check and give him a freebie if you feel like slowplaying, half his outs make you the nuts anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

adanthar,

i forgive you as you probably haven't played a low limit sng in a while. but, most players play any two suited. those spades on the board are sucker's friend.

[adanthar]

They don't raise to 70 with any two suited, though, do they (given sucker has the A and K)? If they do I'm out of touch, but you should still either check or bet more than a third.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
They don't raise to 70 with any two suited, though, do they (given sucker has the A and K)? If they do I'm out of touch, but you should still either check or bet more than a third.

[/ QUOTE ]

touche, i forgot the pf actions when considering this.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They don't raise to 70 with any two suited, though, do they (given sucker has the A and K)? If they do I'm out of touch, but you should still either check or bet more than a third.

[/ QUOTE ]

touche, i forgot the pf actions when considering this.

[/ QUOTE ]

no, take the touche back...I see people raise all sorts of suited crap in level I...he could have anything. But I admit the preflop raise CUTS BACK on the probability.

I hate to admit this, but playing the 11s is like playing PLO8...I play my own hand.

[Seth Money]

GL with your project I would suggest getting up to 1320 and moving to the 20's, thats 60 buyins and a little less headaches

Watch out for DProf1080, I here he is a pro, hahahhaha (Its not me so you don't have to worry) Keep us posted.

Seth

[sofere]

At the 11s I don't min reraise AK from late position. There is no need to grow the pot as they will pay you off with all their chips with Ax, TT-KK when you spike your ace.

And if you miss you're continuation bet isn't worth a damn, cause they'll call with anything.

I don't mind the check behind on the flop, but I rarely like to give up a betting opportunity with the best hand in the 11s.

[stupidsucker]

And if you miss you're continuation bet isn't worth a damn, cause they'll call with anything.

See... we need to come to an agreement as to how people will react. In this thread alone people have said the opposit things. The 11s are unpredictable, but what about the 22s. 33s and 55s. How do people react in general.

Is it better to get HU and use position or get them all in preflop.

I like using position and I have what I think is a solid reason. When your all in you are all in... Sure this may be the best way to double up, but it is also the fastest way to lose.

Isn't survival the key #1 thing in a low level SnG?

Im curious to see some of the opposite thinkers say. I know there are those that play ULTRA tight early , and those that try to shake things up a bit more then usual.

[durron597]

By just calling you disguise the strength of your hand a bit and he may c-bet into you when you have the best hand. Call is much better than minraise here.

On the flop, you have the best hand and the best draw. Just check and give him a chance to bluff! He might bet 99 if you check the flop, he might go for a turn check raise with nothing if he's really tricky, but by raising preflop and betting the flop he's not playing back at you without a good ace which is only a fraction of his hand range.

I might play this hand this way if I thought he was raising light and tight postflop and wanted to steal the pot away from him.

[Gomez22]

Through my last 200 $10 SNGs, I've tightened up ALOT in the first 1-3 levels, and am showing a 32% ROI so far (in that small span, which I DO accredit a bit to my tightening). That being said.....

[ QUOTE ]
I like using position and I have what I think is a solid reason. When your all in you are all in... Sure this may be the best way to double up, but it is also the fastest way to lose.

Isn't survival the key #1 thing in a low level SnG?


[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree with this statement. Every independant hand in poker is completely situational (of course), but with AK, my initital tendency in early levels facing a raise in front of me is to just call along and use my position as best as is possible. Many players tend to think of AK as the "holy grail" of hands, so it seems, and overplay it alot. I've found that by not getting retarded with it, my results with it have improved dramatically. I'm not saying that I WON'T re-raise or push with it, it's just that those 2 options are not "standard" for me at levels 1-3 of small buy-in SNGs.

Also, if I'm in either blind and 3+ limpers or a min-raiser and a couple of callers are in, I prefer to call with AK again (once again, early on in a SNG.... perhaps not in mid-game or late stages) due to the fact that the only thing that is going to basically get me the pot is a push or large raise, which I personally don't like to do with AK unless I'm short-stacked or have good reads on the players already involved.

You can't win a SNG in the first 1-3 levels, but you sure as hell can lose it. I just prefer to not get overly aggressive until I feel that I'm in a position to take control of the table or I'm in dire straights.

[Gomez22]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, there's leak #1. The flop will miss you 60%+ of the time and people at the 11's like calling. What is the point of this? Just push, KJ will call.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is something that I completely disagree with. I respect your play and posts, adanthar, but AA-TT and possibly some other smaller pairs will call as well. It's not always going to be that way, but stating that KJ will call seems somewhat silly.

Please tell me why you would push AKs at level 1 of a SNG with only a few chips to gain and an average stack? You're not getting any value from the hand, and only better hands are going to call (for the most part... not always, but most likely).

From my experience, I haven't seen too many players dumb enough to call an all-in with KJ (or similar) at level 1 of a SNG without being short-stacked.

Maybe many in here will disagree, but I think pushing (without reads) with an average stack early in a SNG with AKs is a mistake for the most part.

Just my 2 cents, though.....

I disagree, they will call you with KJ cuz they think you have a small pair and are trying to buy the pot. Or they'll call with a small pair cuz they think you have two broadway and they KNOW that their always slightly ahead. They also fold alot too, but I don't know what they have when they fold.

But saying that they will always fold KJ is not true.

[Gomez22]

[ QUOTE ]
But saying that they will always fold KJ is not true.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those words never appeared in my reply. What I said was that I didn't see TOO MANY players that were dumb enough to call an all-in with KJ. I've seen it and worse, but not all that often to make me think that it happens with alot of frequency.

[SCfuji]

[ QUOTE ]
I got AK again on this same table, pushed. AT called

[/ QUOTE ]

this is why i always pushed AK on the party 11 early on. sometimes youll get two players with decent aces coming along and youll triple up.

[stupidsucker]

By just calling you disguise the strength of your hand a bit

See, Maybe this is where I am messing up then.

Why would I want to disguise the strength of my hand? I dont see AKs as an extremly strong hand post flop without flexing its muscles preflop. Sure if you hit TPTK or a flush draw or both then it is awesome... but how often does that happen.

he may c-bet into you when you have the best hand. Call is much better than minraise here.

More often then not you will whiff the flop. What then?

Whif + EP bets into you?
You can fold or push back or cold call again .. none of these feel good to me.

Whif + EP checks??
Push??
The pot would never be very large in this situation., so a push is fairly out of the question if you ask me. You are either way ahead or way behind if you whif.
Check??
Cold call flop then checking a whiffed flop would seem like weak-ass poker to me... is this possibly correct for this structure.
Bet??
Any amount opens you to a re-raise and you have to fold to a reraise. Tiny bet maybe?

Those are some of my reasons for not cold calling AKs . I am not saying I am right... only trying to show my thought process.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]


More often then not you will whiff the flop. What then?

Whif + EP bets into you?
You can fold or push back or cold call again .. none of these feel good to me.


[/ QUOTE ]

Just because you have AK doesn't mean you are obligated to win the pot.

[ QUOTE ]

Whif + EP checks??
Push??
The pot would never be very large in this situation., so a push is fairly out of the question if you ask me. You are either way ahead or way behind if you whif.
Check??
Cold call flop then checking a whiffed flop would seem like weak-ass poker to me... is this possibly correct for this structure.


[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you call that weak-ass poker? Sometimes passivity is correct!

[ QUOTE ]

Bet??
Any amount opens you to a re-raise and you have to fold to a reraise. Tiny bet maybe?


[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes they fold, too...

[ QUOTE ]

Those are some of my reasons for not cold calling AKs . I am not saying I am right... only trying to show my thought process.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see why any of the problems you describe wouldn't happen with a minraise post flop either. You still whiff 70% of the time and now you have to play a bigger pot with Ace high. Sure you are in position but you can actually bet and get raised and fold and still have a stack if you don't minraise. How is minraising and then checking behind any better?

No one is folding to your minraise. Also, if you let one of the blinds come in they are probably making a mistake and you also get the odds to come alone. Plus the pot is smaller preflop which is what you want with Ace high (assuming you don't get allin preflop).

[microbet]

I prefer either calling or pushing preflop, but I wouldn't push preflop in an $11. I'm not sure that calling is better, but if you extrapolate to a free game, calling is certainly better.

On the flop I don't really think it makes a big difference if you check or bet small like that. I think I prefer the small bet here, because I think he's likely to be a calling station and just pay you off on each street with any PP or draw or anything like that, then he is to make a big bluff with a hand you beat.

Was Pot_committed a gimmick 2+2 account for you?

[ QUOTE ]

Show me why my roi is less the 5% at the 22s and 33s over the last couple k SngS... It is not that I don't believe it. I just don't understand it anymore. All I see are beats and monsters.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow I'm not the only one. Over 934 SnG's (mostly $22's and $33's) I have an 8% ROI. Over the last 420 my ROI is below 0. Yet I don't see any big leaks. I play tight early and I push late, and I check my pushes with SNGPT and I do them OK. I keep getting sucked out on and losing as a favorite on the bubble, but at the moment I'm not even sure if I'm a winning player anymore.

I'm going to do a similar experiment. First two days no poker at all. Then I won't play for 2 more weeks, but I will read this forum and study old games. Then I'll start at the $11's and work my way up. I will rebuild my game and hopefully be good enough to at least beat the $33's when I'm done studying. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I think this is definately +EV. First of all, if I have another day like I had yesterday, I will hate poker for the rest of my life. Secondly, what's the point of 8-10 tabling the $22's? Sure, they are 'easy' to beat (or so they say), but after some studying, I should be able to beat higher buy-in levels. I feel like 8 tabling the $22's is like 8 tabling .25/.50 limit games. It's pointless.. at that level you should learn and move up, not make as many hours as possible.