My WA/WB line!

[bozlax]

Ok, so, forget that I posted BB + dead...a complete brain-fart.

Read: Villan is sLAG over 30 hands (high 20s/15+/3), but he's been running g00t. I haven't seen him get out of line with defending, either. I've been playing a pretty good TAG game (18/12/1.4), maybe stealing a bit too much.

How's my line? Should I have bet this flop?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Hero posts a blind of $1.50.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero (poster) raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

[MrWookie47]

I think you could almost check and fold this river. You're hoping for QQ. And TT. AT is a pretty remote possibility, buut non-zero, I suppose. Regardless, it takes a special kind of lag to bet that river with QQ on that board. If he bets, you're almost certainly losing.

[milesdyson]

god what a crappy flop. at first glance this is how i would play it. the only reason the river call is okay is because he might have AQ or ATs here. with his high aggression he may even bet QQ on the river.

btw that guy has vpip/pfr stats like me (not saying this positively means anything) - and if i saw you post your bb and dead and then raise an mp open limper, i would 3-bet ATs for sure, so we should allow it in his range.

edited to add: this isn't the best seat, either boz. just thought it worth mentioning.

[istewart]

Capping preflop seems like an option, but if he isn't defending much, maybe not.

Against this guy I don't mind your line all that much. I don't like folding if those numbers in any way reflect his play, and I feel like you're getting raised or 3-bet if you ever try to get crafty here.

[lautzutao]

This is almost the exact same hand I saw earlier in the week:) Given that's the case, how often can we be ahead reasoning villians 3-bet prerequesites?

I wouldn't have bet this flop. As far as the rest of the hand...I'd check call all the way down too. But you're probably donating more often than not.

[Shillx]

Are we winning this pot 25% of the time????

I say yes. This post is different then the other one so don't even start posting links about how I'm an inconsistant SOB. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[xenthebrain]

I like it, since it's slighty more on the WB side.

I think with villian raising ~15% KQ and maybe KJs are also possible holdings of him. (though a little more unlikly than the others)

[lautzutao]

I have to go back and look at the earlier post in this situation, but that pot was flippin huge and you said fold it.

So yeah, I'm gonna need an explanation here/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[POKhER]

We beat:AT, TT, QQ,

BET flop, call raise.
Fold turn UI?

i reckon we lose so often i want to fold the turn UI.

Perfect example of WA/WB. I think you have to call it down. Posting the BB+dead is alway suspect when you come out firing.

I call it down.

[POKhER]

could you give us the hands we're ahead of vs behind?

IMO its more of a "WB/WB/WB/wa" Maybe i'm a pessiist /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
this isn't the best seat, either boz. just thought it worth mentioning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lucky for me I wasn't sitting in it. I was button with KK. But I thought "Hero" played an excellent WA/WB against a Villan who could be seen as a little too raise-happy preflop and aggro postflop. The only thing I might've done differently would be raise-call the river, but I'd probably chicken out and see the cheap showdown.

Oh, and FWIW there aren't any REALLY good seats at this table /images/graemlins/tongue.gif, but we do have 3 players with VPIP over 35...bringing the table-average up to 23!

[POKhER]

Can someone please tell me how this is a good wa/wb?

WA/WB = X:X on the hands we win : hands we lose to no? Isnt this therefore WB WB WB!

(thats without knowing the result... which was a loss).

[cold_cash]

This is a unique hand.

I wouldn't exactly call it a way ahead/way behind deal though, in the 'classical' sense anyway.

We have a gut-shot that is likely to be good, so on the turn we have 10 outs to beat KJ. Add to that the fact that we might already be winning or chopping.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
Can someone please tell me how this is a good wa/wb?

WA/WB = X:X on the hands we win : hands we lose to no? Isnt this therefore WB WB WB!

(thats without knowing the result... which was a loss).

[/ QUOTE ]

What line would you have taken? You're right, as is Cash, this isn't necessarily a classic "WA/WB" (you have too many outs if you're behind, but I do think you're pretty close to X:X), but aren't you going to play it like it is? Villan (me) is about 50% looser than Hero...he's also pfr'ing about twice as much (Villan clearly recognizes this table is waaaaay tight, and is taking advantage of it). I think you can put Villan's range, preflop, to pp's down to about 99, suited aces down to about 9 or 8, unsuited broadway connectors, suited broadway cards, etc., and you can't really narrow it any on the flop without running the risk of costing yourself extra bets with a hand that you'd really like to at least see the river with.

Until the river (as somebody said, it would take a special kind of LAG to bet QQ on this river, not that I'm anything but a special kind of LAG /images/graemlins/smile.gif), you have no idea where you stand, and no way of cheaply figuring it out, so you check/call down...isn't that what WA/WB boils down to, after you strip off the stuff about how many outs each of you have, whether you're HU or not, and whether it's equal times your ahead and behind?

[POKhER]

i'd of bet the flop, when you raise(I asume you will raise me?) i fold the turn UI as i think im WB more than WA.

So calling down = -EV as the WB&gt;WA

But as i say, i could be weak tight as im verging on the "Safe side" whilt i play party as thats whats winning me cash. Me previous style was overagressive.

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
i'd of bet the flop, when you raise(I asume you will raise me?) i fold the turn UI as i think im WB more than WA.

So calling down = -EV as the WB&gt;WA

[/ QUOTE ]
that's not the only thing that matters. it's how often you're behind and how often you can improve to win. so,

1. there's money in the pot.
2. we can improve.
3. we could be splitting/winning when he raises the flop.

if he has AJ, for example, we have 10 (3 queens, 3 kings, 4 tens) outs to beat him. what if he has AQ? ATs? a dumb KQ/QQ? what if he just calls your flop bet - then what?

[POKhER]

yeh true, But i assume he has AK/AA/KK/QQ, dropped it to AK/AA/KK

So to improve... we dont have many improvements. As i say, I think we are WAY behind.

If he calls my bet ill shoot again on the turn. If he calls that.... and flips KK? LOL i make a note.

[milesdyson]

you don't think you'd ever get raised on this flop by AJ/AT?

[milesdyson]

also when you bet and he has QQ/TT, he is going to call the flop and fold the turn. when you check call the flop, he may put another bet in with those hands (you'd at least give him a chance).

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
yeh true, But i assume he has AK/AA/KK/QQ, dropped it to AK/AA/KK

[/ QUOTE ]

I had noticed over the past couple of months that you were one of my sLAGgy Friends. Now, you've clearly gone over to the Dark Side...the Darkest of the Dark Side, no less. Just because an LP Villan, who's been raising around 15% of what you've watched preflop, 3-bets you, you're putting him on AA/KK/QQ/AK? And then you reduce that to only the hands that beat you because he raises an ace-high flop? Wow.

Hey, wait a minute. This is one of those hidden-camera things, isn't it?

[POKhER]

[ QUOTE ]
you don't think you'd ever get raised on this flop by AJ/AT?

[/ QUOTE ]

yeh but 3bet preflop i'm not sure about.

[ QUOTE ]
also when you bet and he has QQ/TT, he is going to call the flop and fold the turn. when you check call the flop, he may put another bet in with those hands (you'd at least give him a chance).

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not check calling the flop, im betting the flop calling a raise. Ill bet the turn if he calls the flop bet.

[POKhER]

lol,

im 17/7

I dont assume i'm beat the way you played it, As i say i bet the flop... I call a turn raise (This is where my hand reads go to the strong hands).

3betting preflop is quite aggresive, im not assuming AT/AJ here primarily... But they are an option.

If villan(You in this case but lets keep it to villan) raises first in sure... But when he 3bet? AJ/AT hmmm

[cold_cash]

Remember that our Hero posted a blind and then raised.

I don't like betting out on the flop.

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
also when you bet and he has QQ/TT, he is going to call the flop and fold the turn. when you check call the flop, he may put another bet in with those hands (you'd at least give him a chance).

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not check calling the flop, im betting the flop calling a raise. Ill bet the turn if he calls the flop bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
yes, and when he only calls the flop with QQ or TT, he is simply going to fold unimproved when you bet into him again on the turn. you allow him to not make a mistake with one of those hands by betting the flop. when he 3-bet you with 99/88/77, he simply folds the flop - you get nothing when he has two outs. there's also the chance that he decides to slowplay the flop with AA/KK/JJ. i don't see much (any) good that can come out of betting the flop.

[benkath1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
also when you bet and he has QQ/TT, he is going to call the flop and fold the turn. when you check call the flop, he may put another bet in with those hands (you'd at least give him a chance).

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not check calling the flop, im betting the flop calling a raise. Ill bet the turn if he calls the flop bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
yes, and when he only calls the flop with QQ or TT, he is simply going to fold unimproved when you bet into him again on the turn. you allow him to not make a mistake with one of those hands by betting the flop. when he 3-bet you with 99/88/77, he simply folds the flop - you get nothing when he has two outs. there's also the chance that he decides to slowplay the flop with AA/KK/JJ. i don't see much (any) good that can come out of betting the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very good point indeed. This is the stuff that isn't obvious, and you can't get from reading a book. Inducing bluffs. You're almost playing the other hand more than yours.