Skilled LAG play?

[Skuzzy]

What is it? My NL education was mainly from several tournament books HOH and earlier dreadful books, excellent books/essays by Ciaffone, general poker theory TOP etc., this site, and just playing.

None of these texts or sources provide a basis for how a player can successfully make the transition from a tight ass weaky with a sustained winrate at SS, to a good skilled LAG who can own the table with his post flop play. But all suggest playing tight to start.

What is it that the typical 2+2 LAG (sLAG) is doing differently from my 16/6/2 game?

Every time I post it seems I get told to fold preflop as it is. "Fold AJs UTG", "Limp AKo its -EV even in MP"

Then occasionally there's the non-specific "play more with position". Play what!!!!!

We aim for hands to double up on right? So how does playing 'Any 2' help accomplish this? Any 2 can flop two pair or trips but they do so infrequently. it's about 2% to hit 2 pair ( not including a pair on the flop and pairing one in your hand), 1.4% for hitting trips, 2.3% to catch a four flush to one of your cards. If you play any two suited you can make a flush or draw about 11% on the flop but your more likely to be the one paying off in a big pot there.
Cards with some connectedness can have from 2.5% to 11% of making a str8 draw or better and at least you might get something on these hands ( I know I've paid off 64o enough)

So should I be looking to play hands like T7o if i can limp it in to a multiway pot? Should I be calling raises with good position if I have even a 10% total chance of catching a draw?

It seems that this forum tends to lean in the direction of playing with a wining LAG style and I want to learn all I can here. It just all seems so hard when I spent so long just learning to fold junk.

[Hoopster81]

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It seems that this forum tends to lean in the direction of playing with a wining LAG style

[/ QUOTE ]

Really?

Have you read Supersystem?

Playing "any two," and picking up pots when no one has anything, means you get paid off bigger when you actually make your hands.

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So should I be looking to play hands like T7o if i can limp it in to a multiway pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't! LAG is about raising w/ position (even w/ junk), not limping with garbage.

[Skuzzy]

I dont know!!!!! Maybe I'm just suffering from that common poker players delusion that the LAGS have it all and TAG play is old news. 16/6 is still too tight though, and I just can't find a hand these days. Lastfew days or so I've ran at 11/3 !!!! This might be a monstrous run of bad cards or it might be that I'm on some form of tilt, but whatever it is, I'm definetly suffering.

[mudbuddha]

full ring or 6 max??

[Skuzzy]

Do you make that kind of play?

[mudbuddha]

lag is loose aggressive.. the main difference between TAG and Lag is probably the consideration of position. LAG cares less.

I used to, and I got paid off handsomely when I made my hands, but I discovered that my postflop play isn't good enough, and my variance was huge.

You've just gotta be really good at making judgement decisions postflop.

So, no, I don't, but I know good players can. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Hoopster81]

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Lastfew days or so I've ran at 11/3 !!!!

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Do you play full ring? If so, this is not completely unreasonable. If you play 8 tables of 11/3 full ring play at the lower limits I guarantee you will make decent money.

I think LAG play is fine, but difficult when multi-tabling. TAG play may have a lower inherent winrate, but add in the factor of being able to play a bunch of tables at once, and it is the best internet strategy IMO.

[elus2]

[ QUOTE ]
Have you read Supersystem?

Playing "any two," and picking up pots when no one has anything, means you get paid off bigger when you actually make your hands.


[/ QUOTE ]

so which is it? if they fold too much how do they call when you have the goods?

[subzero]

I personally think TAG play is very effective at these stakes. Even if you play extremely tight, give up your blinds, and fold to turn raises all the time, you'd probably still get action on your big hands. This is the Internet. Many players won't pay that close attention to your play because they don't care or they're multi-tabling. If you suspect that people are taking advantage of your tight play, then you can adjust or find another table (there are plenty out there).

Poker is a game of people. Don't come to a table with a set game plan to play Lag or Tag. Come with a strategy to counter different environments. There are times when you will want to play loose agg and times when u need to play tight agg.
For loose aggressive play, you can play any two cards from late position if your opponents aren't call stations. There's no point bluffing into callstations. By playing a higher number of weaker hands, you will get more action on ur big hands. i generally will play Ax suited, Kx suited, all pairs, and suited connectors with gaps and the usual like AQ KQ etc. How to play each of the hands listed are a different story.
Knowing how to play Lag properly is important but realizing that you don't need to sit with a set game plan is more important.

[ QUOTE ]
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Have you read Supersystem?

Playing "any two," and picking up pots when no one has anything, means you get paid off bigger when you actually make your hands.


[/ QUOTE ]

so which is it? if they fold too much how do they call when you have the goods?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this not standard poker metagame theory?

They fold when they don't have anything. They call when they have the 2nd best hand, since they don't put the LAG on the best hand.

That's why your reading and postflop play has to be excellent. You have to be able to pick up the pots when no one has anything, and be able to get away from them when they do.

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I personally think TAG play is very effective at these stakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree. In general, LAG-style play just isn't very effective at lower stakes (especially online). There are typically too many loose/weak players at the table who will call your bluffs with second pair or river you with inside straights and weak flushes when you do actually have a hand. However, a strong player will be able to adjust his style based upon game conditions no matter what the stakes. Basically, TAG at a loose table and LAG at a tight table. I think the best way to develop an overall style/strategy is to start by mastering the fundementals and then molding your game into what's most comfortable for you. If you're not comfortable in a particular style you'll never excel at it. There are great players at both ends of the spectrum. The key is just knowing when to change gears when the time is right.

[Skuzzy]

For simplicity sake say full ring. But I ask the question, in part, because I'm trying to learn 6 MAX and find the transition very awkward as a "traditional" tight player.

Did OP mention what stakes he is playing at? If your LAGGING it up at 50 or 100 NL, you'll get waxed. People call with anything and you have very little fold equity against most players. I think the ability to adapt and loosen up becomes more important when your playing at higher stakes, maybe 200NL and up on PP at least, but I don't play above 100NL much so maybe someone who is more familiar with higher stakes can chime in.

[subzero]

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..because I'm trying to learn 6 MAX and find the transition very awkward as a "traditional" tight player.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've avoided 6-max, but the thread below got me interested.

Six Max Baby Steps (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=micro&Number=2536762&f part=3&PHPSESSID=)

[Skuzzy]

I can see how TAG play is often correct but... I want to insure I can actually play. Winning is great, I like money, but I want to be a good player and not just a robot. A tight solid game is pretty much what I hae, thats the base I'm starting from. Now I want to add in the ability to loosen up as and when conditions change. It's not that I disagree or think TAG is wrong or less than optimal in the main, I just want to understand how a player can play a looser game successfully. What is good post flop LAG play? How do you get the most out of a hand that is good but far from the nuts?

[subzero]

[ QUOTE ]
Did OP mention what stakes he is playing at? If your LAGGING it up at 50 or 100 NL, you'll get waxed. People call with anything and you have very little fold equity against most players. I think the ability to adapt and loosen up becomes more important when your playing at higher stakes, maybe 200NL and up on PP at least, but I don't play above 100NL much so maybe someone who is more familiar with higher stakes can chime in.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't play about 100NL, but I think the advice might apply (somewhat) at higher levels. This is from a recent CardPlayer interview with Mike Matusow (you know he's playing high stakes):

CardPlayer: Let's finish up here by talking about online poker. You love playing online and I know you've had some big swings there, but, presumably, you're a winner in the long term. I'm wondering what you see people doing wrong online.

Mike Matusow: <font color="blue">They play too many hands</font>. The speed of the game is so fast that they think they have to play every hand. But the game doesn't change. The mathematics of the game don't change. <font color="blue">If a guy is robbing you blind, who cares? When you have a hand, he will pay you off</font>.

CardPlayer: Doesn't sound like you have much respect for online players.

Mike Matusow: <font color="blue">Online poker players are the worst poker players in the history of mankind</font>. I play against really bad players who just give their money away. Guys put in $13,000, $14,000 when they can't beat anything. Only online do you see that. That can never happen in a live game. I crush the no-limit online.

[elus2]

what about all the times when they call with the best hand because the lag doesn't have anything.

[Raven]

[ QUOTE ]
lag is loose aggressive.. the main difference between TAG and Lag is probably the consideration of position. LAG cares less.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think its right, to play a good lag is to play a solid post flop game and a aggresive preflop game with a wider range of hands that the usual tight player, position is also if not more important when you play like that.

[Skuzzy]

I play 100NL and take shots at 200NL. This is a recent move up. The reason I want to expand my range is to help for the move to 200NL. I think this step is likely to be more key to me coming from the tight is right background than any other one I've made in limit or NL.

[subzero]

Have you seen fim's post on moving up (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ssplnlpoker&amp;Number=324 8374&amp;Forum=&amp;Words=quantum%20leap&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Limi t=25&amp;Main=3240623&amp;Search=true&amp;where=bodysub&amp;Name=1 1964&amp;daterange=1&amp;newerval=&amp;newertype=w&amp;olderval=&amp;o ldertype=&amp;bodyprev=#Post3248374)?

[Skuzzy]

Thanks for the links Subzero.

[emil3000]

Please don't quote this interview as something insightful or anything. I won't comment on those specific lines, but you should think about whether you want to take advice from a guy who in the same interview makes these statements:

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I needed to make one of the top three places [in the WSOP ME] [for it to matter]. Number nine doesn’t mean anything to me. It just enables me to pay off a few markers.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I have people I can borrow money from. I don’t worry about money. When things get bad, my mom asks how I will pay bills. I say, “Ma, shut up. Have I ever worried about money?” I don’t worry about money. Somebody will always loan me money."

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I loved football. I still do. I’m still a degenerate. Come football season, the bookies all call me. I go off for anywhere from $200,000 to half a million every football season. I know I will lose all the money, but I can’t quit because I love it so much.

[/ QUOTE ]

And my favorite, which also tells something about this guys understanding of poker:


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So, if it’s fifty-fifty, would you want to go in holding a made hand or needing to make a hand?

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[Skuzzy]

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So, if it’s fifty-fifty, would you want to go in holding a made hand or needing to make a hand?


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That's a nice line. But it tells you something about my understanding of poker that I had to read it twice!

[subzero]

I'm not a big fan of Matusow's. The guy has no money managment skills and I don't like his attitude. I just found it interesting that a pro like him (someone I'd expect to play a tough LAG game online) would hint towards a TAG strategy since Internet players are so bad (even at his stakes).

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what about all the times when they call with the best hand because the lag doesn't have anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about it?

The point is to use your skill and judgement to avoid these situations. If it comes up, hopefully we still have some outs because we've been intelligently semi-bluffing and not rampaging with 27o. Obviously you don't want to bet air when you put your opponent on a hand.

As I said previously, it comes down to reads and postflop skill, which is why *I* don't do it, but you can't play any style of poker if you're always scared of the nuts.

[gulebjorn]

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[ QUOTE ]

So, if it’s fifty-fifty, would you want to go in holding a made hand or needing to make a hand?


[/ QUOTE ]

That's a nice line. But it tells you something about my understanding of poker that I had to read it twice!

[/ QUOTE ]

I would wanna go in with a made hand.

[afreeman]

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Maybe I'm just suffering from that common poker players delusion that the LAGS have it all and TAG play is old news.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been wondering the same thing lately.

Then I watched my 2003 WSOP DVD again. At the final two tables, there were about an equal number of TAG players (if not more) vs. LAGs. You don't see or hear about them much from the announcers because they don't make wild, dramatic moves.

Same deal in live poker. Who are you going to remember longer: the guy quietly taking down an occational medium pot, or the guy that is constantly bluffing and playing junk hands?

Plus, the personality of most LAGs is also typically more outgoing and jovial than that of the typical TAG player (think Scotty Nguyen versus Dan Harrington).

(Of course, at this level the game, players are constantly shifting gears, so its hard to really catagorize any top player accurately; I'm using these guys as examples because they seem to epitomize the archetypes.)

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
lag is loose aggressive.. the main difference between TAG and Lag is probably the consideration of position. LAG cares less.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not true, I think good lags understand position and players better, and have better hand reading skills. JMHO. I don't recommend people LAgging it up unless you have a lot of poker experience.

[emil3000]

Here's my take...
I play a hand when I think it's profitable to do so. Sometimes this leads to playing a lot of marginal hands, sometimes it leads to playing super-tight. Meta-game considerations aren't high up on the scale for me, that is, I don't play lots of hands just so I can get paid off when I make a hand. However if I happen to have played a lot of hands and played them very aggressively I am aware of this, and try to figure out which of the players have adjusted to my play, and then I try to readjust to them. You just kinda go with the ebb and flow of the game and your cards.

Oftentimes, especially in a shorthanded game I raise with marginal hands in late position to isolate the bad limper who I want to play with. Some people might regard this as LAG play, but really it's only a matter of playing a profitable situation in the most profitable manner. Profitable button play for me at least includes a lot of weakish holdings.
whitelime writes more about this in his post. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=3661078&amp;page=0&amp;view=colla psed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1)

Raising suited connectors and stuff early is a slightly different story, in that it also serves to widen my hand range and make it harder for my opponents to play against my big pairs. Still, I don't raise UTG if I don't think it's at least neutral EV in the current game conditions. If you get called a lot by bad opponents anyway, you have less need to mix it up. If you have been playing few hands, and the table is also playing tight, then you have a good chance of stealing the blinds. Also your opponent are likely to misread your hand, which leads to profitable situations.

So I don't really care that much about LAG or TAG play as such, I just try to recognize profitable situations. The so called solid players see fewer situations as profitable, and so they play fewer hands.

[emil3000]

So to all the inexperienced players who are in awe of the super LAGs that rule the world, don't play a hand just because it's loose and upmixing to do so, play it cause you think you have the best of it somehow, either cause you think you can blow this fellow off his hand, or because you get paid handsomely when you hit. If you're unsure of your postflop abilities and don't think you can play profitably, don't play.

Simple game huh?

[xorbie]

[ QUOTE ]
lag is loose aggressive.. the main difference between TAG and Lag is probably the consideration of position. LAG cares less.

[/ QUOTE ]

wtf no.

[xorbie]

To the OP: read the thread on agression. It discussed several agressive tactics that people should, at some point, incorporate into their game if they want to succeed at higher limits shorthanded.

So play solid hands like you normally do, and mix it up a little bit. Raise with crap upon occasion... Just do it, who cares if you lose? Run a bluff. You *can* read players online, you *can* make them lay a hand down with nothing.

A pot sized bet does wonders I find. But you have to be careful, if you aren't smart about it, you play like a fish. Adjustments in both directions I've had to make heavily since I started playing poker at all.

[galahad_187]

according to the 'when to move up' post i should even be in 50nl much less thinking about moving to 200. - have a good idea of your opponents hand by the river.

i suck at that =p

-galahad

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lag is loose aggressive.. the main difference between TAG and Lag is probably the consideration of position. LAG cares less.

[/ QUOTE ]

wtf no.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blame it on Harrington if you disagree. In HOH, p.40, defining the "agressive style" as compared to conservative and super aggressive, Harrington writes that an aggressive player will open with:

"1. all pairs 2. any two face cards 3. ace-anything 4. suited connectors, even as low as five-four suited.

"Aggressive players aren't terribly concerned with positional requirements, so all of these hands are suitable for opening even in early position."

I think it is true to say that position is less important to a lag in preflop play (I mean starting requirements), but lags focus more on using position postflop.

Certainly that is what Harrington was saying.

And to quote another notable American: "can't we all just get along?" /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[FreakDaddy]

Concur. Let's cut it in rubber and stamp it.

[Skuzzy]

The thread on aggression? Is this one I should have bookmarked?

[xorbie]

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The thread on aggression? Is this one I should have bookmarked?

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought it was good.

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The thread on aggression? Is this one I should have bookmarked?

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought it was good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you mind posting a link?

Thanks.

[Morrek]

I assume you mean this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=3652601&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp; o=&amp;fpart=all&amp;vc=1)