Looking to improve

Hey, guys. I've been lurking here for a while and I'm 100% impressed with the level of advice you give so I'm eager to ask some questions and learn.

The background on me: I've been trying to play serious Hold 'em for about the past 6 months. In that time, I've learned a lot and managed to build my bankroll to a level where I think I can actually take a shot at making it grow more rapidly for me.

I have a lot of experience playing 10-man and 6-man NL SNGs on Ultimate Bet. My normal buyins are $10-$50 SNGs. I win them consistently and recently tried playing some MTTs. Unfortunately, I never seem to make it past the bubble. I almost always finish in the top 30% of the field, which obviously doesn't cut it. I'm a full time student but try to play a few hours a day and many hours on the weekend.

Basically, I am wondering if you guys have some advice on how to take my game to the next level and start cashing in these MTTs. My current bankroll is around $2000. With that in mind, what kind of buyins should I look for and how do I make the transition from solid SNG player to solid MTT player?

Thanks in advance for all of your thoughts.

Check out the faq for bankroll advice. Pick up Harrington on Hold'em 1 and 2, and TPFAP (not gonna spell that out) by Sklansky. Post a ton of hands, review your play honestly, and keep lurking on the boards.

offhand, I'd say you should be playing in micro mtts all the way up to maybe $10's.

Couple quick questions:

You state that you are always finishing in the top 30% but have trouble getting past the bubble.

What kind of stack do you normally have after the first hour of play? After the second?

If you play SnGs with any success you understand the need to steal blinds from other players. This is very important in MTTs in the middle and late stages when a majority of the hands are won preflop. You need to be stealing to keep your stack up inbetween your good hands.

Do you only have an account on UB? If so I would recommend making an account on Party and PStars. The MTTs on them generally have more people(more fish) and the play in the smaller <$100 buyins is pretty weak and a good place to work on your game.

I would recommend playing in tournies that are under $20 buyins for your bankroll at least until you have some more success in them. Also you may want to try some multi table SnGs on PStars or Poker. Playing against 18-45 people may help you to transistion from single table SnGs to the larger SnGs.

Thank you for those helpful posts, guys. I appreciate the advice.

To answer some of the questions posed:

I have read all of Sklansky's pertinent poker books, including the ones mentioned here, and I'm nearly finished with both of Harrington's books. I've found Harrington's second volume to be very insightful and even noticed a big improvement in the my stack from hour to hour in MTTs. I will rereview Sklansky's books and do some more studying.

Badger: My stack at the end of the first hour is usually about average and, if I've hit a decent hand or two, slightly above to double the average. This is where my game has weaknesses. By the second hour, I'm usually at average again or have slipped below average. I play a fairly conservative game I guess. I don't play A-crap. I fold KQ in the face of a raise. I don't slow play my bigs hands into losers.

I try to be very conscious of stealing when the blinds get up. I have, however, encountered problems in these situations where I make a raise between 3-5 the BB from late position. Often, I'm either getting raised all in (and can't call) or I get called and continuation bets are reraised.

I guess I'm trying to figure out the optimal gear for that stage of the tournament so that I can 1. effectively steal to keep my stack high while waiting for good hands and 2. play my good hands and accumulate as many chips as possible while 3. avoiding a tough hand that costs me most of my chips.

As well, I played some $20 30man tournaments on Party and did well for a while. In about two weeks, I had won a number of them but then went ice cold and finished one or two spots out of the money in about 10 or more. It was a terrible run and I really questioned my game at that point. Since then, I haven't dabbled much in those types of games.

I guess it's time to give them another try though, huh? If that is a good way to practice for these larger MTTs, then that is what I'll do.

Thanks again, guys.

I would recommend the larger SnGs on PStars before the ones on Party. Personally I don't like the turbos as I haven't found a good strategy for them.

As for the second hour, figuring out when to raise to steal is one of the most difficult parts I've found. Try to look for weaker/tighter players and if they play back it was just bad timing/unlucky.

Staying away from the A-crap and KQ are probably good things to keep up.

If you get a big hand though it's alright to slow play it to some degree. Preflop from early position with AA, KK, or sometimes even AK or QQ can be effective if you just limp and look to reraise all in. I'd stay away from doing this with AK or QQ on a tight table but if there is 1 or 2 extremely loose players look to trap them.

If you make this play and don't get to reraise preflop you have to play very careful especially if a few people have taken the flop and you haven't improved. Being able to laydown AA or KK when it's pretty obvious you're beat is a must if you make this play. If you can't get away from them then I wouldn't recommend this.

Also if you get a big hand in a late position where you normally steal, play it like a steal. Put in your normal raise and contiuation bet, however, when they play back at you preflop or after the flop slow down. Just call and then when they fire again either on the flop or turn you can push in and look to pick up a nice pot. Sometimes you may lose a hand when they hit the flop or turn that you might have won otherwise but you have to take risks at some point in the tourney.

[tdomeski]

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try to play a few hours a day

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Rule #1 - If you aren't committed to playing 6 hours for each tourney you register in, don't play it. I'm guessing your average tourney time is roughly 2.5-3 hrs (top 30% you say). If you go in expecting to play 2-3 hours and leave to do something else, you will play 2-3 hours, not cash, leave, and go do something else. .take a 6 hour block and play or don't play at all.

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I never seem to make it past the bubble.

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Learn to cash first, then learn to make final 18, then learn to win. I'd imagine you are going for the final step before you know what it takes to cash. Once you realize what it takes (and the mindset it takes) to cash you will be able to realize what it is your opponents are going through and take advantage that around the bubble time.

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I am wondering if you guys have some advice on how to take my game to the next level and start cashing in these MTTs.

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Regularly evaluate your bust out hands (either post here or on your on accord). You will probably realize as an MTT novice that many hands you bust out with are very avoidable. I'd guess right now you find yourself busting out a lot with weak aces and low pocket pairs. .cursing your luck for not being able to win a coinflip late.

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My current bankroll is around $2000.

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$5-$50 MTT's, throw in a few Stars $11 rebuys a week and that should be good. .try to satellite into the bigger Sunday tourneys on each site.

While I appreciate the thoughts, your inferences are pretty off. I don't play weak aces, like I said previously, and I am usually getting my money in as a favorite, not coinflips.

A perfect example just happend a few minutes ago.

I was playing a $30 150man on UB. I made it through the first hour with about double the average stack. Sitting at around 5000, with the average stack being around 3500 or so, I picked up AQ in early position. I raised it to 450, 3 times the big blind, and got two callers.

The flop was 10 8 4 rainbow. I checked because an aggressive, somewhat crazy player was to my immediate left. He bet 350 into a pot of about 1500. Late position player folded and reraised to 2000. He called.

Turn was a 4. At that point I was pot committed obviously and went all in for the remaining 1000 or so chips. He called and turned over A4.

I seem to lose to those situations a lot. I don't know how to see that. I raised preflop, the board was junk, aggressive player probes, I reraise big representing big pocket pair. He calls and hits trips.

I realize there is a low chance he is going to trip like that but I bust out on hands like this constantly.

Regarding the line about learning to cash in the money first, then top 18, then winning...yes. That's what I'm trying to do by asking.

[Nicholasp27]

he didn't need trips
he already had the 4 on the flop to have u beat

maybe u had an amazing read on him, but i'm not too into reraising when someone bet into a rags flop and pot committing then pushing and getting beaten and thinking it's a bad beat

if u are busting out like this constantly, then maybe slow down getting all your chips in the middle with ace-high

That's fair but then if I don't play some aggressive poker, I'll be told that I need to make plays every once in a while.

Just playing your top pair, great kicker won't win tournaments, will it?

I'm just asking critical question as I'm serious about improving. My questions are never meant to be rude or patronizing.

Thanks again for thoughts.

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The flop was 10 8 4 rainbow. I checked because an aggressive, somewhat crazy player was to my immediate left. He bet 350 into a pot of about 1500. Late position player folded and reraised to 2000. He called.

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This is where you are going wrong. Your preflop raise with AQo is standard and not bad at all. You have to realize though that AQo, while a good hand, can easily be beaten by many other hands. AQ is the hand I have lost the most with in tournaments and I play it much differnetly than I used to.

I'll walk you through I would have played this hand:

On the flop you have an aggressive player (not sure of his postion) and a LP player having called. Since you are first to act you can play this two ways.

The first is to check as you did. But when the aggressive and "crazy" player bets you should fold. It's tough to put him on a hand but I'm guessing he at least has a pair since there is no draw on the board. Yes your reraise looks like a big pair to a 'good' player but you've already said he is crazy. Since he has shown a lot of weakness with his small bet you could try to bet him out but I would bet t900 to show strength. If he calls or reraises though I am done with the hand unless I hit my ace or queen on the turn.

Your second option here on the flop is to bet out. You raised preflop and got two callers. A ten high flop could easily have missed both of them and you may win it with a contiuation bet. With t1500 in the pot I would bet about t750 and hope to win it right there. If I get a caller I am done with the hand unless I improve. If I get raised I am folding.

Hands like AQ and AK are good hands and you should raise with them. But when you miss the flop and a continuation bet fails or there is a big bet to you they are no good. These are hands that need to improve to win much of the time, so when you miss completely you have to be ready to let them go.

One other thing to comment on is your thought that you were representing a big pair. While you may think your bet shows a lot of strength and should be seen as a big pair that's not really the case. Online players generally are not good enough players to think like this. Your play looks like what it was: you saw weakness and reraised on a bluff. Don't try to make fancy plays against people online you will be very dissapointed most of the time.

Those are great points, Badger. I really appreciate you taking the time to play that out with me. I'm going to try to watch for this situations in the future and stay patient.

I guess with blinds moving up, I was looking to score a good pot. I had reraised the previous hand with AQ as well and laid it down after a continuation bet on the flop. Maybe that contributed to my demise here. Who knows.

Either way, I appreciate your help.

[Cactus Jack]

Not to mention the fact that many online players see this kind of extreme overbet all the time and often it screams, bluffing--don't call me. Problem is the knuckleheads always call.

When you get a "crazy" player with chips, you'll have to showdown the best hand almost every time. They give up chips to good hands, then go crazy again looking to get more chips to call you down again with. This cycle continues deep into every tournament, sometimes very very late indeed.

It's hard to tell a semi-LAG, from a LAG, from a fish.

(OP, you might do better here, too, with a slightly more humble approach.)

CJ

I hope I didn't come as not being humble, because I am. I am only asking questions back in hopes of probing to find more specific answers.

I really don't want to come off as anything but eager to learn. I apologize again if I have.

Thanks for your thoughts as well.

[Cactus Jack]

No problem. Some folks are a bit touchy about these things. This is the place to learn.

Good luck.

CJ

[play2win]

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and I am usually getting my money in as a favorite, not coinflips.


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Well, you might have initially got you "chips" in PF with the better hand, but it probably wasn't the best after the flop. Making a huge overbet as a bluff probably won't pan out against a maniac.

I would re-read some of the advice Harrington gives on survival. AQ is a good hand PF, but it is pretty much a worth nothing after you checked it on the flop. Harrington also suggests making a "continuation bet" if you lead out PF with a bet. I like that play personally. Controlling the size of the pot with online poker is important. Being able to get away from a hand is an under-rated skill, but incredibly important in MTT. The way you played that AQ shows that you have some work to do.

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That's fair but then if I don't play some aggressive poker, I'll be told that I need to make plays every once in a while.

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Yes, you do need to make plays once in a while. The biggest part about pulling off a bluff (especially one that is just ace-high) is picking the right time to do it, the right player to do it against, and most importantly doing it against someone who will most likely fold (not a LAG).

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Just playing your top pair, great kicker won't win tournaments, will it?

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YES. This is a part of a winning game that combines with the few monsters you "hopefully" get and "hopefully" get some action on.

Back to your play at hand:

The good thing is that you have a read on this guy already:

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aggressive, somewhat crazy player

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Online it is hard to peg most players, but picking out the LAG or "rock" can be done. Make a note and adjust your play correctly when you are playing against them.

I would suggest reading Al Schoonmaker's "The Psychology of Poker". There is a lengthy section on playing against LAG's, it specifically states never to try and bluff a LAG. You will almost always have to show down the best hand against these players. Keep this in mind and adjust your play, give yourself a chance to win the pot, at the same time a way out.

Reading books on poker is great. But don't just read them, study them. You are a student, so you should already know how to get into a textbook and extract information and learn. The books available are your textbooks, treat them as such. Read through them the first time, sit them down for a few weeks, then pick them up with a pencil and highlighter and go to town. Write down some hands you played that apply to the advice put forth. Highlight advice you agree with, and advice you disagree with. Every professor was at one time the student, you must crawl before you walk, etc., etc., blah, blah.

Poker is an art, science, mathematical problem, evaluation of events, actions, and psychological analysis of yourself and your opposition......this is why so many people love to play. But more importantly it is all based on THEORY, which is applied on the spot with an immediate evaluation of your conclusions. So when you read these book, do so objectively instead of subjectively, everything stated is not always correct, for you, for the situation at hand, or sometimes for the opponent(s) you are up against.

Good (preperation for) luck /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I guess I'm part of the way there in that I identified the guy as being really loose. Basically, I just need to surrender that hand after the flop hits if I decide not to make a continuation bet.

Either that or wait until I'm in that situation against a tight player.

Back to studying. Thanks for your analysis as well. It's been very helpful.

[cferejohn]

From reading the rest of this thread, it sounds like you are generally on the right track. You're fine tuning your timing as to what sorts of players to make plays on and which ones not to, and that's good. Another very very important thing is patience. The variance in MTTs can be quite huge. It's quite possible you have a +EV MTT game right now and it just hasn't paid off yet. You are going to go on long long losing streaks even as a +EV player, it's the nature of the beast. If, in looking at your play, you find that you are most often a favorite WHEN THE CHIPS GO IN, then you are probably doing just fine. MTTs are probably the easiest place to let results mess with your head (well, maybe NL cash games when you are underbankrolled).

Good luck

Yeah, that's a really good point. I think staying patient and realizing that my big cashout could be right around the corner is best.

By the way, haha, I know what you mean about playing some NL and letting it mess with your head. I almost quit poker after three days of losing big pots as 80% or better.