AA fold

[Nick_Foxx]

I play mostly Stud Hi/Lo and Omaha Hi/Lo, but occasionally I play a NLH SNG to switch things up. I thought this was an obvious fold but when I asked some friends, they were flat-out indignant that I folded AA pre-flop. Some considerations:

Seat 4 had been sitting out the entire tournament.
Seat 8 had shown an inclination to call very large bets with marginal holdings.

My reasoning:

1. If I move in and no one calls, I can steal the blinds, and still be the short stack.
2. If I move in and Seat 8 calls and I win, I will still be the short stack.
3. If I move in and Seat 8 calls and I lose... well, I don't have to explain that.
4. If I fold, I strongly believe I can beat Seat 5 who has been playing poorly, and at least finish second.

Fire away

==

PokerStars Game #2784240991: Tournament #13683730, Hold'em No Limit -
Level IV (50/100) - 2005/10/12 - 01:56:49 (ET)
Table '13683730 1' Seat #7 is the button
Seat 4: (280 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 5: (3505 in chips)
Seat 7: Me (1280 in chips)
Seat 8: (8435 in chips)
Seat 8: posts small blind 50
Seat 4: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Me [A/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif]
Seat 5: folds
Me: folds
Seat 8: raises 100 to 200
Seat 4: folds
Seat 8 collected 200 from pot
Seat 8: doesn't show hand

Im not folding this hand preflop for anything. It doesnt matter if you think you can outplay someone at latter stages. I mean if you are going to fold aces preflop instead of pushing in with them at this blind level... wow... I mean just... wow.

[splashpot]

This is very very bad. The fact that the shortie is sitting does mean you should tighten up considerably, but not folding everything. Sure you might be able to fold into the money, but there is also the possibility shortie comes back, doubles up. Then you're screwed.

I've said it before. If top 3 paid equal prizes, folding would be correct. Otherwise, this just sucks.

[Rduke55]

I'm assuming this is a joke.

[bluefeet]

You're only behind one possible holding (pockethttp://www.stwing.org/~martinja/purplehorseshoe.gif's of course) - I think I'd risk the push /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Rduke55]

And even if seat 5's playing poorly he's got almost a 3:1 chiplead on you and the big stack's going to be hammering you and you're going to have to call with K9o or something.

[splashpot]

I just remember that folding AA preflop is covered in the FAQ. In general, it says don't do it.

Yup, please read the FAQ. LOL!

[lem45216]

[ QUOTE ]
AA fold

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh dear.

[tjh]

Your analysis about possible outcomes fails to take into account table image.

If you push and get called you are shown as having aces when you push. Not a bad thing future pushes may get a little more respect. If you push and they fold you can show your aces, and once again it may have some future effect.

I do not put a lot of weight on table image but certainly it has some effect. No way I am folding aces.

--
tjh

[nuclear500]

So let me get this straight.

You are holding the best possible starting hand and only have to worry about one player calling your raise.


Are you telling me that in Stud you would also fold your split Ace's? In Omaha you fold Ace's?

You play Poker?

[Sykes]

I would love for seat 8 to call me with AT (10+ to 1 favorite) or QJ (6 to 1 favorite) for me to double up in chips.

I play for first. 3rd is seriously worth nothing to me. The only way I fold this is if I have like.. 400-500 in chips and it would be basically a miracle to get first. But with 1200, this is a clear push (or open raise to 400 and push on any flop)

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
The only way I fold this is if I have like.. 400-500 in chips and it would be basically a miracle to get first.

[/ QUOTE ]
Still wrong to fold Aces. Actually it's even more wrong than it is with a big stack.

[Sykes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The only way I fold this is if I have like.. 400-500 in chips and it would be basically a miracle to get first.

[/ QUOTE ]
Still wrong to fold Aces. Actually it's even more wrong than it is with a big stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't think so. you're doubling 400 chips to 800 chips. and you're still 4 to 1 behind second place guy and 10 to 1 against chip leader.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

The only possible way I might fold AA pf is if you were in BB and UTG, Button AND SB were all 3 all in b/c AA is not good multi-way, otherwise I am never folding this PF

I have trouble folding AA w/ 4 to a str8 or flush on the board... LOL

[valenzuela]

All I saw on your post was "preflop".
HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE , HORRIBLE FOLD.

[Sykes]

[ QUOTE ]
The only possible way I might fold AA pf is if you were in BB and UTG, Button AND SB were all 3 all in b/c AA is not good multi-way, otherwise I am never folding this PF

I have trouble folding AA w/ 4 to a str8 or flush on the board... LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you dumb? AA is the best hand to go multiway with.

[Nick_Foxx]

I didn't say my move was correct, that's why I'm posting on here.

From your post, it is obvious to me that you have never played a single hand of Stud/8 or Omaha/8 in your life.

This is an obvious fold- wait for a better time to get your money in.....

Also, If I am BB and 3 people in front of me go all in, I'm not sure I can click "call" fast enough.

For those of you who consider folding AA PF, the general consensus before was that it is ONLY correct if you are the short stack on the bubble of a satellite, and the other short stack has already gone all-in. I believe that was the only "correct" time to fold.

Hi, There!

In this situation I would also fold...

...my clothes - after removing them - and then I would toss them into the pot with all my chips. ( /images/graemlins/blush.gif )

Normally, I would throw my cat into that pot, too, but she's been hiding under something or another in this house for several hours. That may be due to my earlier yelling after 2 consecutive first place finishes. Woohoolalula! ( /images/graemlins/shocked.gif )

Have a great day! -Geri.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

[ QUOTE ]
... AA is the best hand to go multiway with.

[/ QUOTE ]

AA has the best chance against any one opponent. If you are HU w/ AA you are usually a 75%-95% favorite. But multiway, (3 people all-in before you) you drop to a roughly 55% favorite. I guess from a pot adds perspective it is a call, but I hate to miss ITM when I am guaranteed by folding. PLEASE NOTE, THAT I ONLY SAID FOLD IF ALL 3 WERE ALL IN BEFORE ME!!!

However, in applying the pot odds to the equation, I see that I might be wrong to fold there... but pot odds are not soley the basis for making ALL decisions.

[runner4life7]

you should never play NL hold em again. This play made both me and baby jesus cry.

[johnnybeef]

Dont ever fold AA preflop again. EVER

[nyc999]

Reading the subject line, I was expecting an "I have AA, but the flop came out 9-10-J suited, and the turn was an 8 of the same suit, four pf callers and they've all shown aggression, good laydown?"

But no, this is plain horrible. This could be the new "fold AA" thread in the FAQ to stop players from doing it.

[mosdef]

[ QUOTE ]
I play for first. 3rd is seriously worth nothing to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a really, really stupid thing to write and i am sure you didn't mean it, but if you did you should write a retraction and spend a few hours begging the poker gods for forgiveness before continuing with your poker career.

[Sykes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I play for first. 3rd is seriously worth nothing to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a really, really stupid thing to write and i am sure you didn't mean it, but if you did you should write a retraction and spend a few hours begging the poker gods for forgiveness before continuing with your poker career.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the context that you put it in, it looks bad. But seriously, if you finish in the money 50% of the time and all those finishes are 3rd place finishes, you're a losing player.

I'm not saying I wouldn't mind 3rd if I had no other choice, but I would not stop pushing on the bubble if it gets me closer to first.

[Percussion]

folding AA pf is -ev

[kyro]

You've resigned yourself to getting 3rd place when you could easily throw yourself into running for the actual money. That's not good.

[valenzuela]

OMFG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I saw the hand, it wastn even a push he folded to a miniraise.prkd..wtf!!!!!.omg, i can t beleieve it....btw I have never played stud or omaha but it looks like u havent even read the aleomagus guide. sorry to be so harsh but thats the second worst play Ive ever seen by someone this forum, im serious( of course number 1 is the guy who folded top pair good kicker with 470 to 1 odds, but he wasnt being seious)

wow! /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Iamafish]

Keep playing at stars. Good fold, fold AA everytime.

[Gar Pike]

Well, contrary to the other posters here, I think this was an "inspired" play.

Some considerations:

You won't get sucked out on when J90 calls and gets runner-runner 9s.

You won't have to worry about what you're going to do with all them chips, in case your hand does hold up.

What site was this and what's your handle?

Get the ... *pict-cha* ?

Regards

Gar

PS There're other ways to play AA UTG besides open-pushing, you know. And other ways to win besides doubling up. Why don't you list some of those and give us your thoughts on them. At least, you could get the discussion on to something other than "AA fold preflop BAD"...

I'll give you a start.

Limp and push to a re-raise.

[Nick_Foxx]

Given the overwhelming reaction, I guess I did make the wrong move. For the record, I did manage to get it heads up and took the chip lead but ended up finishing second.

I don't think I'm a bad NLH SNG player, but some of your comments suggest otherwise. I keep meticulous records and over 200 SNG's, my ROI is over 30%, so I really feel my general play is not terrible. In this case, perhaps it was. Now that my name is mud on this forum, I promise not to post here again.

Mike

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
over 200 SNG's

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't stop posting. Just realize that 200 is nothing.

[Gar Pike]

You just happened to push a hot button, Nick. And this is a tough-love place. Did you learn anything from the replies? What was it? That's what's important, not how you feel about the replies.

Regards

Gar

PS And in the tough-love vein, how did you get to 520+ posts without learning that?

[Nicholasp27]

[ QUOTE ]

4. If I fold, I strongly believe I can beat Seat 5 who has been playing poorly, and at least finish second.


[/ QUOTE ]

u fold AA preflop and think u can outplay seat 5, who has triple your chips?!?!?

ha

[valenzuela]

[ QUOTE ]
I promise not to post here again.

Mike

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you do that??? Almost nobody would post here if they left when theyre berated..I vote stay!

[Nicholasp27]

[ QUOTE ]
The only possible way I might fold AA pf is if you were in BB and UTG, Button AND SB were all 3 all in b/c AA is not good multi-way, otherwise I am never folding this PF


[/ QUOTE ]

i'd hope u'd still push this...the ONLY way you get 4th in ur scenario is if the shorty beats your hand and one of the other stacks do as well

don't pass up a chance to quad up because u are scared of that one, low%, scenario


edit: only fold here if this tournament's buy-in was your house title

Looks like you were playing not to lose instead of playing to win.

[JudoGirl]

The difference in profit between 2nd and 1st is greater than the profit you make by taking 2nd place. So it pays to take those risks for a better chance of taking 1st place. And not matter how great your skill level, in short stack tournaments like this, your skill level will never give you as much an advantage as getting all-in, headup with AA will.

[MegaBet]

Awful.

That's all.

[playtitleist]

Like Bill Cowher.

edit - Sorry, that "playing not lose" reminded me of countless playoff losses by the Beloved. Damned playing not to lose [censored] drives a brutha crazy.

[GtrHtr]

You're a brave soul for posting this hand and I truly think you posted it with a lot of thought so well done.

The reason for the reaction to this post may be found in the FAQ under "should i fold AA PF" or something along those lines. Check it out for the reason behind some of the flaming.

As to the hand, I'd play it whatever way I felt it would allow me to double up which is usually an open push in this type of situation, although with the blinds so low it may be folded to you. The intent for going to the felt with this hand is to raise your $ equity in this game, increase your FE, and improve your ability to put pressure on the second stack in coming hands - among others.

Well done on getting HU. Brave post.

[Uppercut]

Worst...fold...ever.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

You're only behind one possible holding (pocket (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2323818&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1)http://www.stwing.org/~martinja/purplehorseshoe.gif's of course) - I think I'd risk the push (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2323818&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1) /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[vexvelour]

[ QUOTE ]
Seat 8 had shown an inclination to call very large bets with marginal holdings.


[/ QUOTE ]

This means push your good hands, not fold them!!!