Am I in a LAG phase? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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private joker

10-14-2005, 05:16 AM

Or are these regular value bets? I haven't played online in a week, and now I'm back on Party Poker -- so glad to see fish that I may be overplaying my hand, assuming everyone sucks. Or else these may be standard. What say y'all about these two hands?

Hand 1: No reads on anyone.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 3 folds, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.40 SB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, Button raises, UTG folds, Hero 3-bets, Button calls.

Turn: (6.70 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

River: (8.70 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets...

Hand 2: No reads on anyone

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
2 folds, Hero calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (4.40 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP2 folds, Button raises, BB folds, Hero 3-bets, Button calls.

Turn: (5.20 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

River: (7.20 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets...

W. Deranged

10-14-2005, 05:17 AM

In the second hand, what hand that you are beating possibly calls on the river? 33? K-high?

ArturiusX

10-14-2005, 05:21 AM

Call the flop raise in hand 1. We shouldnt be trying to bully a weaker J out of the hand, and we don't want chips in as a dog vs a queen.

The river bet is interesting in hand 2. Are we folding a nine here?

private joker

10-14-2005, 05:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Call the flop raise in hand 1. We shouldnt be trying to bully a weaker J out of the hand, and we don't want chips in as a dog vs a queen.

The river bet is interesting in hand 2. Are we folding a nine here?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have a very good point about Hand 1. But also in my range of hands were KT and T9, since I see a lot of OESDs raising this here. But in that case, what I should do is call the flop raise and throw in a stop-n-go lead on the turn.

In Hand 2 -- yes, since I'm calling a bet if I check, I'd rather do the betting myself because there's a chance a 9 folds here, with two overcards and the lower card paired. A 9 should be thinking, "All I can beat is a bluff."

10-14-2005, 05:49 AM

Hand 2: Are you going to fold to a raise on the river? If not, you have to factor in this extra bet lost because a raise means you're toast.

private joker

10-14-2005, 05:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: Are you going to fold to a raise on the river? If not, you have to factor in this extra bet lost because a raise means you're toast.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an easy fold to a raise. The point is I'm putting in 1BB on this river -- the question is do I check-call or bet/fold. That's why I posted it; I thought bet/fold was best at the time because of the small chance I can get a 9 to fold, plus the few times 66/55 call me. But it may be that I'd rather let a missed heart draw bluff.

SackUp

10-14-2005, 06:00 AM

Hand 1 - that is fairly aggressive even if you think he has an OESD. Having a CC range on this guy would be nice. You are likely toast to a standard player who would have something like AQ or KQs. Though a medium PP may play this way as well, though not as likely.

I like the line you suggested of calling the flop and then pulling the sng on the turn. Easy fold to a raise. But what do you do on this river? Easy value bet after he just called your turn bet or do you c/c?

Hand 2

I like it. I definitely think you can fold a 9 with the turn and river cards. What about a sng on this hand given that you must be putting him on diamonds to 3-bet him on the flop here?

Overall I think both hands might be a little overplayed against unknowns, but I think it is definitely close.

thesharpie

10-14-2005, 06:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 - that is fairly aggressive even if you think he has an OESD. Having a CC range on this guy would be nice. You are likely toast to a standard player who would have something like AQ or KQs. Though a medium PP may play this way as well, though not as likely.

I like the line you suggested of calling the flop and then pulling the sng on the turn. Easy fold to a raise. But what do you do on this river? Easy value bet after he just called your turn bet or do you c/c?

Hand 2

I like it. I definitely think you can fold a 9 with the turn and river cards. What about a sng on this hand given that you must be putting him on diamonds to 3-bet him on the flop here?

Overall I think both hands might be a little overplayed against unknowns, but I think it is definitely close.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if we can easily fold to a turn raise if we stop and go in hand 1. We'll be getting over 8 to 1 and might even have the best hand if he's LAGgy or just doing a free showdown play, it also looks weak since we'd be 3 betting our good hands, and if not then checkraising the turn.

Hand 2 that Q changed nothing for him, and since he called the ace turn I think he's showing down a 9.

Edit: I guess we play great hands against aggro opponents with a stop and go looking to 3 bet the turn sometimes, although I don't think we would on this board, but part of the reason it works is because it looks weak.

Carmine

10-14-2005, 07:02 AM

Hand #1 - No read on button and we assign his CC with T9/KT more than AQ/KQ/KJ/QJ/QT??? (I realize the J holdings are less likely). If that is the case then why are we bet/folding river rather than check/calling? Even if he has JT I still think C/Call river is better because I think many a weak J will fold to a river bet.

private joker

10-14-2005, 07:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Even if he has JT I still think C/Call river is better because I think many a weak J will fold to a river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh. Any weak J that's folding to a river bet is checking behind. But a lot of weak Js that are checking behind are also calling a river bet. Sure, I'm getting called by every better hand -- but I also can't let worse hands that will call check behind, and if I'm calling a river bet when I check, then it makes more sense to put the BB in as the bettor.

toss

10-14-2005, 08:02 AM

I guess hand 1 is okay. I play it differently where I either call and fold the turn UI or calldown depending on reads.

Hand 2 I'd raise PF. I think your postflop play is good.

Pharity

10-14-2005, 08:31 AM

Hand #2: How would it be to call the raise on the flop and then bet/fold a non-heart on the turn? I dont think he raises many hands on the flop that you beat, except for the flush draw. Comments?

Entity

10-14-2005, 09:32 AM

#1 top pair isn't folding. A weak top pair might check. A busted draw might bluff. Check-call.

#2 I raise preflop and don't usually 3-bet the flop. A river checkfold is probably better than a river bet; I don't think a 9 folds, and a lot of combinations of XhYh have improved to beat your hand as well.

alul

10-14-2005, 02:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Am I in a LAG phase?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes

SomethingClever

10-14-2005, 03:58 PM

Hand 1 I typically check/call down after the flop raise unless I improve.

Hand 2 I vizzle bizzle the rizzle.

Edit: The tizzle and the rizzle.

shant

10-14-2005, 04:03 PM

I think the river in Hand 2 is a check/fold.

private joker

10-14-2005, 04:06 PM

OK, as I suspected I screwed up both these hands. Luckily, the villains in both cases folded to the river bet, and I scooped without showing down.

But that means I either failed to induce a bluff (and potentially lost a BB) or just got lucky by dodging cards.

gaming_mouse

10-14-2005, 04:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the river in Hand 2 is a check/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

BigEndian

10-14-2005, 04:54 PM

Yes private joker, these hands are both overplayed.

- Jim

Wally Weeks

10-14-2005, 10:08 PM

Is this your standard line w/o reads? I thought that the typical standard response to a flop raise to an unknown is to call down on Hand 1. I think that most people will call down w/ almost any Q and probably fold the river if he's on a draw that missed.

Hand 2, I'd probably stop and go. Call the raise on the flop and bet out on the turn if a scare card falls hoping that he'd fold. If he calls, he may be either on a heart flush draw or has a 9. If he calls on the turn shooting out on a river that isn't a heart isn't bad especially if another scary card comes. However, I'm not sure if check/calling is right if a heart does fall to catch bluffs. Check/folding is probably generally better.