I got taken for a ride this hand

[Elizabeth]

This was an online paradise 2/4 game. Ante is .25, bring in a dollar.

I am pretty much a stud newbie. I got taken for a ride this hand. I am trying to learn from it. Maybe somewhere along the line, I could have gotten away from it? The earlier the better, of course.

Bring-in: 3/forums/images/icons/club.gif
Player-2: 8/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif calls
Me: (K/forums/images/icons/spade.gif 3/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif) K/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif calls
Player-4: J/forums/images/icons/club.gif calls
Player-5: A/forums/images/icons/spade.gif raises
Player-6: K/forums/images/icons/heart.gif calls
Player-7: T/forums/images/icons/club.gif calls

The Bring-in folds, and player 2 and I call.

4th:
p-2: 8/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif A/forums/images/icons/heart.gif
Me: (K/forums/images/icons/spade.gif 3/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif) K/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 5/forums/images/icons/heart.gif
p-4: J/forums/images/icons/club.gif2/forums/images/icons/spade.gif
p-5: A/forums/images/icons/spade.gif 7/forums/images/icons/club.gif
P-6: K/forums/images/icons/heart.gif9/forums/images/icons/heart.gif
p-7: T/forums/images/icons/club.gif8/forums/images/icons/spade.gif

p-2 checks, I bet, 1 call, 3rd st raiser just calls, player 6 raises, a fold, the rest call.

5th:
Me: (K/forums/images/icons/spade.gif 3/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif) K/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 5/forums/images/icons/heart.gifJs
p-4: J/forums/images/icons/club.gif2/forums/images/icons/spade.gif 7/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif
p-5: A/forums/images/icons/spade.gif 7/forums/images/icons/club.gif5/forums/images/icons/club.gif
P-6: K/forums/images/icons/heart.gif9/forums/images/icons/heart.gif9/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif
p-7: T/forums/images/icons/club.gif8/forums/images/icons/spade.gif Q/forums/images/icons/heart.gif

the 9's bet, p-7 folds, I raise, and still 2 more cold callers and the bettor calls as well

6th:
Me: (K/forums/images/icons/spade.gif 3/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif) K/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 5/forums/images/icons/heart.gifJ/forums/images/icons/spade.gif A/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif
p-4: J/forums/images/icons/club.gif2/forums/images/icons/spade.gif 7/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 8/forums/images/icons/heart.gif
p-5: A/forums/images/icons/spade.gif 7/forums/images/icons/club.gif5/forums/images/icons/club.gif2/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif
P-6: K/forums/images/icons/heart.gif9/forums/images/icons/heart.gif9/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif Q/forums/images/icons/spade.gif

p-5 bets and all call.

7th: I catch a 3/forums/images/icons/spade.gif for 2 pair. The p-6 bets into me, and I give a call to see the heart flush.

I will post my reasoning in another post right away.

[Elizabeth]

On 3rd street, I didn't think that this was the kind of game where just raising the bring in would limit the size of the field. I had just read the loose games section in 7csFAP, so I thought I could work in a raise on 4th street or later.

Once the pot was raised on 3rd, and there were a bunch of callers, I thought I would just call and bet into the raiser on 4th, hoping to thin the field. I don't think I can fold on 3rd.

On 4th, I think I do have a chance to fold, and I'm thinking that I should. First, the As to my left raised on 3rd, so I may make kings up and lose to aces up, never mind the fact is that I probably won't get headsup anyway.

Second, the Kh caught the 9h. Since I've seen 3 kings, his most likely hand is a 4 flush. Once he raises, that's clear. Can I get out after his raise on 4th? The pot's too big to not put another dollar in. Can I reraise and hope somebody folds? Perhaps.

On 5th, I think the raise is clear. Unfortunately it's just too late - the pot is too big to make the other players fold.

6th, I probably need some help, so I check hoping for the free card.

7th, I've made 2 pair and I have to make a crying call getting 20-1.

[patrick dicaprio]

1. there is no reason to just call here on third street. you should raise every time even if it wont get players to fold. this advice only pertains to lower limits however.just calling the raise by the A is OK.

2.i dont see how you could have gotten away from this hand. reading your post there is no point where i would have folded. the raise on fifth is correct, or at least i would have raised there. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

3. on sixth you say that p5 bets but how could he when p6 is high? i assume this is a typo and p6 bet. note that he caught on the river which means that you were a favorite when you made two pair. i assume no one else beat your hand or showed down.

pat

[MtSmalls]

I don't think that you played this poorly at all. My style would have been more aggressive, but that's me. Calling on third with the Ace behind you is questionable. If you raise and he re-raises, then you know where you are at, and can probably fold (unless you get a bunch of callers). Your third King is out, so you are in a tight spot.

Fourth: This might be where you could have gotten away. I would have checked here. You didn't improve, and the player representing Aces might have. If you check, the Ace bets, and the Kh raises, you can fold here right??

Fifth: Given that you are going to play this to the end, its a good raise. P6 is clearly on a flush draw and the (represented) Aces have shown no aggression. Make the heart draw pay. Note: Most stud players will tell you that a raise on this street all but commits you to the river, unless you are clearly drawing dead on 6th.

6th: You picked up one of the aces, keeping it out of P5 hands, the flush draw picked up a brick. I think you need to raise again here. Again making the flush draw pay and representing K's up to the represented Aces.

7th: You improved, but were bet into. Get a read. If you can get a good read on this player looking at his river card, you might be able to save this bet. If not, you made the right crying call, forcing him show. He caught, too bad. Make him pay next time and hope he doesn't leave the game too early.....

[Andy B]

You didn't get taken for a ride on this hand. Getting taken for a ride involves calling on capped or nearly capped betting rounds. I have some experience in this area.

On third street, I'd raise right away. You may and may not lose anyone. If a lot of people call, you are getting more money in with what is probably the best hand. If you raise, you give the Ace the chance to re-raise. This should get people out. He should re-raise with a lot of hands because there is a good chance that he won't believe that you have Kings. If it turns out that he does have Aces, it isn't that terrible if it's heads-up. You have position and a two-flush.

If I call a full bet with a dead King in the door, my most likely hand, by far, is a three-flush. I would submit that your typical on-line $2/4 player will find a lot more hands to play than that. It is true that a four-flush has more equity than a pair of Kings on fourth street, but the Kings are still usually going to be profitable. Both hands gain equity from the J2o's that are still in there. I don't think that three-betting on fourth street is going to chase anyone. If you don't lose anyone, your raise helps the four-flush a lot more than it helps you....

Your raise on fifth street is fine. If you knew it wasn't going to get anyone out, calling might be better, but it's hard to know until you try it. If you had been playing with these folks for a while and they had shown a propensity for calling multiple bets with trashy looking boards, you could have adjusted accordingly.

You have to call on sixth street, and you have to pay off on the river. Sometimes, you just have to lose a hand. There is no point at which you can fold this hand.

[Andy B]

Tough to get a read on a guy when you're playing on-line. You're not going to get rich laying down Kings-up for one more bet in a pot this big anyway.

[Wombat6]

Ok I am going to comment as i go as I feel this is the fairest way to do this kind of thing

Ok you have a duplicated Hi card with a dead low kicker and the suit is also mostly live . that suit calls the opening bet from a early position with a mid up card looking at a batch of hi cards behind him. you have a lot of hi cards including an A behind you. this means that many of the hi str8 starts are in a bad way. Also there are probable pairs behind you.I feel this is a must raise situation. I would just about always raise if the game was tight and because the structure is rather loose. However I couldnt fault you for calling especially if your image is loose or bad. or the A is tight and deceptive. this is because you can hammer them if you catch good but slow way down if you brick and they catch wonderfully. But I think this is a bad play in almost every case. you need to thin the field here because your kicker is weak and your suit isnt totally live and also because your K pays best with no more than 3 other opponents . Plus you want to take a shot at knocking a semi stealing A out now before he gets better and take out any draws or at least make them pay a premium.

ok the A raises you should re raise or fold because you want to play what might be the best or second best hand heads up if the A is semi-ing, restealing or paired up with a small kicker ro a small or mid sized pocket pair.

it seems things just go down hill from here you brick and bet which really isnt all that bad considering 4 th street wipes out alot of mid str8 draws. your getting in deeper however because the dupicated K has suited card bigger than your kicker the A calls a raise you should fold.

when the duplicated card catches a open pair and the A catches a 1 gap suiter you have got to check and fold here.

Why because people will often raise on a semi steal with two mid suiteds or better with a big over card and check or call when the catch another suited on 4th. when they catch a four flush on 5th watch out they often wont raise because they dont want to raise their price and they will be getting a overlay to their 1.75:1 shot. of course being up against 2 drawing flushes really exaserbates this problem. this is a definite fold here.

you got married to a bad big pair and it cost you most because you didnt thin the field early even though you had abundant chances to.

do your self a favor and Never let this happen again raise big pairs early to thin the field and get information

sorry for kind of rambling here but I think I might have munched some wacky tabaccy some gangstas planted round back or that fruit I had for lunch was a bit fermented .

wombat6

[Wombat6]

Andy,
I would believe because all the unduplicated high cards as well as an A behind an early position raiser in a loosly structured game.

Doh' must have been the grapes %-P

Wombat6

[Elizabeth]

"Fourth: This might be where you could have gotten away. I would have checked here. You didn't improve, and the player representing Aces might have. If you check, the Ace bets, and the Kh raises, you can fold here right??"

I agree. I had bet, hoping that the ace would raise and we could limit the size of the field. I should have thought about hand reading first. I'm probably against a 4 flush, a pair of aces, and 6 opponents, with a dead king. The pot's big, but what kind of hand is it going to take to win it? The chance of me making that hand is small ... the pot may be big but it's size has grown ONLY because of the number of players involved. My chances of winning have to decrease faster than the size of the pot increases.

Well, I *am* looking for a place to fold here. I realize that some hands, you just have to lose. But here, I was floundering, tied to a big pot with 1 pair, and the best I could hope for is that I make 2 pair and 6 of my opponents miss. That sure feels like I've done something *wrong*.

"6th: You picked up one of the aces, keeping it out of P5 hands, the flush draw picked up a brick. I think you need to raise again here"

Raise to knock the aces out? I tried that on 5th, but it didn't work. It may look hard to call 2 cold twice in a row with only 1 pair, but I think it's actually easy. I'd be representing kings up already made; a 3rd king is dead so I'm probably not rolled up. He's got lots of redraws to beat me. To win this hand, I need to pair and I need my opponents to not improve. I felt I needed to survive 6th street as cheaply as possible.

[Elizabeth]

1. so noted. I won't be making this mistake again.

2. Thanks for your comment!

3. yes, I posted incorrectly. The flush draw bet on 6th. I called, and the aces called too. My raise on 5th was an attempt to isolate the player that I thought I should be beating.

Actually, the funny thing is that on the river, the flush bet, I called, and p-6 had ONE dollar left in his stack, and he folded. Getting 85-1. I couldn't believe it. I'm wondering now if he had a pair of aces at all? Maybe he missed a missed flush or straight draw, and I actually was ahead until the river!

[patrick dicaprio]

your advice on seventh is technically correct, but in practice i dont think it is possible to get a read inthis game. so i would pay off every time and live with the results. few and far between are the time i would fold kings up on the river for one bet.

Pat

[SittingBull]

by not immediately raising on 3rd. If U are re-raised by the "A", FOLD.
Your most likely hand by the river is 2 pairs--not enough equity to beat A's up. Calling was your WORST play. Folding would have been a much better play than calling. And in a loose-aggressive game,Folding a semi-dead big pair is NEVER a big mistake--but once in awhile,a small error.
If U are in a LOOSE game,make sure U play with ALL LIVE CARDS--since it will be difficult to move anyone.
HappyPokering, /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif
SittingBull

[Tom D]

I agree with SittingBull for the most part. If you play the hand, raising seems better than limping, but in either case, I think you should have folded to the Ace’s raise with two players cold calling the raise, and six-way action. Your hand is dead.

I think the best play would have been to fold without ever putting any money in the pot. You have one King and two 3s in the deck to make a hand. If you hit the King right away, you might scare your opponents off (no profit), and if you hit a 3, you have a difficult hand to play multi-way.

In a tight game, the hand might be worth a play (raise), but the game looks a bit loose, if not a little wild.

Tom D

[patrick dicaprio]

i dont think you can fold here if you are reraised by the ace if you raise. the pot is big enough that you probably have to play on. plus if you can get a free card on a later street or if there is some chance that he doesnt have aces then you should not fold even with one of your kickers out. calling might be the best play here not the worst.

Pat

[patrick dicaprio]

are you saying that you should fold a pair of kings when you are next and an 8 calls the bring in. if you play this way you cant possibly win in the long run.

pat

[Tom D]

You’re a little abrupt with me, Patrick. It might have been decent of you to offer some support for your opinion.

To answer your question, yes.

Elizabeth didn’t say anything about the flavor of the game, but since 3rd Street ends up six handed, in the face of a raise by an Ace, I assumed it to be quite loose with multi-way action the norm. I don’t like dead Kings if I can’t knock everybody, or almost everybody, out of the hand. Elizabeth’s table doesn’t look like it offered that possibility, and that is the assumption I made, given that the hand ended up six-way in a raised pot.

With multi-way action in 7-card stud, pairs don’t do well. Do you dispute that?

With multi-way action in 7-stud, dead pairs don’t do well either. Do you dispute that?

One reason why dead pairs don’t do well multi-way is that it is difficult to make the best hand to show down...and there will be a showdown. Another reason dead pairs don’t do well multi-way is that it is difficult to get full value for them even when you improve to two pairs and have the best hand. How comfortable would Elizabeth have been betting her Kings-up for value on the end, had it been checked to her? Remember, the Ace behind her had raised 3rd Street, and flushes do check-raise sometimes.

Dead Kings in this spot, IMO, fall into the “reversed implied odds” category. Even if she had raised and had been re-raised by the Ace to get heads-up (her best hope), I wouldn’t have seen any great reason to rejoice.

The hand is a trap-hand, IMO. Look at what actually happened. Elizabeth hit a live five on 4th Street, a dead Jack on 5th (and her five fell somewhere else), and a dead Ace on 6th. She’s looking at what could be Kings and nines, nines full, or nines and a four flush (good hand in this spot, IMO); Aces, if not Aces-up already; and the mysterious Player-4 with J, 2, 7, 8 who has withstood a little heat so far. She was lucky to make two pair, except it lost her another bet.

While I’m thinking about it, there is no way I would raise on 5th Street with dead Kings in this spot. I would be gone, in fact. Raising here looks symptomatic of Great Play Syndrome and a leaking bankroll.

If you disagree, please feel free to explain.

Tom D

[patrick dicaprio]

on third street there is a good chance you have the best hand. if you raise with kings and the ace reraises then it will likely be a heads up pot and you have a good chance of winning especially if the ace will reraise without aces.

you do not lose profit here if you raise and get a multiway pot. you gain when other players call you with weaker hands. the time you lose profit is in multiway pots where players play decent hands on third street, which in my experience does not happen until you play 10-20 or higher and even then it is iffy. you will lose more hands in multiway pots but your profit is much higher on the pots you do win. so i do dispute that big pairs do not do well multiway at low limits.

this is part of the reason that many players are frustrated by advice in 7CSFAP when they apply it at lower limits. you will be misplaying this type of hand, and with a high rake it makes it difficult to win in the long run.

on fifth street if you are in you must raise. if the ace only has a pair of aces then you have to take a shot at limiting the field and if it doesnt work so be it. there will be more than enough dead money in the pot to make it worth playing.

Pat

[Tom D]

I guess we disagree.

Tom D

[Bill Murphy]

7CSFAP is useless unless you've memorized Roy West's book.

I'm very disappointed that none of the replies I've read mention A: that this game has an ante, & B: how HIGH the antes/bringins are. **THEREFORE** you may actually want to read 7FAP's 3rd St. & ante stealing sections.

As for the hand you posted, raising is automatic, as is the fold if re-raised by the ace, and its headsup:

ks 3d kd - as ac 8h(worst kicker I can think of) / 3c 8d jc kh tc(dead board cards)
7-card Stud Hi: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ks Kd 3d 151477 30.30 348523 69.70 0 0.00 0.303
As Ac 8h 348523 69.70 151477 30.30 0 0.00 0.697

Quiz 1: Is the 3h actually a worse kicker than the 8h?

Quiz 2: Which is a better kicker for the AsAc here; the Qs or the Kc?

No sneaking over tae twodimes.net, mind. /forums/images/icons/cool.gif /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

[Tom D]

Good post. The Kings are only good as a steal, but in a no foldem game, in early position, you're pissing into the wind.

I'll take the Kc kicker for a little defense. Puts the Kings drawing dead (almost) to Aces up.

Tom D

[Wombat6]

Tom D wrote:
With multi-way action in 7-card stud, pairs don’t do well. Do you dispute that?


Ah... as a matter of fact, for big pairs, yes I do

these are some generalities paraphrased from Pg.71 of K. Othmers 7CSpoker book fig 3.2

Pairs T's and higher really dont lose all that much percentage in return vs number of opponents

T's & J's start to drop off at more than 3 opponents

Q's increase in profitability untill they get 3 opponents then drop off slightly at 4.


all three of these lose no more than 10% against a full table than they do against the optimal number of players.
(hot and cold simulations)

K's do better until 4 opponents but dont lose that much till you get over 5.

A's do well regardless how many you have but tend to flatten out at 6.

However by limiting the field to heads up or to 3 or less opponents you will many more of the showdowns. But as money favorites are concerned I would consider Othmers numbers as an accurate outline.

without a doubt this is a raising senario.

Wombat6

[Easy E]

I guess I play too tightly, but if I saw two of my cards (K,3) out, then I'd be thinking fold first with the Ace behind me... and if I raised (i wouldn't dare just call) and got popped, I'd drop.

I do have a 2-flush, but I don't like it much for building on with the pairs chopped down...
?

[Tom D]

You might want to re-read Chapter 3 of Othmer's book, again. His graph showing "percent of return vs. number of opponents", is based on live pairs with live kickers against opponents who start with random cards and always play to the river.

A dead pair, multi-way, against a probable pair of Aces, is a ticket to the poorhouse. I think it is interesting that even if the Ace is not paired, Othmer says that it will be, by the river, 23% of the time (from 3rd street).

Tom D