Who caught up?

[Ulysses]

Pretty loose 15-30.

I limp in MP after 1 limper w/ black 77. Cutoff, a pretty good player, raises. Button cold-calls. BB, limper, and I call. 5 see the flop.

Flop 2d8dJh

Check. Check. I bet. CO calls. Button folds. BB calls. Limper folds.

Turn (2d8dJh)7d

Check. I bet. CO calls. BB calls.

River (2d8dJh7d)As

Check. I bet. CO raises. BB folds. I 3-bet.

Good or bad?

[randoGGy]

bad? i dont know, but /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 's scare me on this hand. i suppose you know your players better than i from this limited info.

[Vehn]

I'm 95% sure he has the nuts.

[elysium]

hi ulysses
you're bringing this one home U. played perfectly. there's some room to raise pre-flop if you think you can get HU with the limper. yea, U., since the CO is a good player, we can discount the raise a little since a good player would know to lower his raising standards from that position against two limpers. he hit his AJ for the two pair. you'll be bringing this one home. well played.

[ddcpr]

What was your thinking for betting the flop here? You hold third pair and all you can hope to draw to is a 2-outer for a set, or two dream cards to make a backdoor straight. I would probably check-fold here. However, if you are trying to see where you stand in relation to the cutoff, why not check-raise? There's a good chance the CO may raise your bet into him, so unless you are going to fold to a raise on the flop you don't save any money by betting out instead of checkraising (both instances are 2 small bets).

[Ulysses]

What was your thinking for betting the flop here?
On this flop, there's a decent chance I have the best hand, but if so, it's unlikely to stay that way. The PFR (and most likely bettor) is right after me, so a checkraise attempt won't accomplish anything here besides building a pot - anyone who has anything will be trapped between us. I'd like PFR to raise me here w/ AK and get heads-up w/ him.

You hold third pair and all you can hope to draw to is a 2-outer for a set, or two dream cards to make a backdoor straight.
Assuming others have an 8 or J... If they do, I'd like to find out. I'm also curious as to whether or not PFR has an overpair. And I'm not really aiming for the bottom end straight to come through...

I would probably check-fold here.
Definitely a reasonable plan.

However, if you are trying to see where you stand in relation to the cutoff, why not check-raise?
This one I addressed above.

There's a good chance the CO may raise your bet into him, so unless you are going to fold to a raise on the flop you don't save any money by betting out instead of checkraising (both instances are 2 small bets).
I'm not looking to save money. I'm looking to increase my chances of taking down this pot. I want CO to raise me.

[mike l.]

your opponent cannot 4 bet the river w/ AAA because he would have to be afraid that you have T9. also he would probably have raised the flop or turn w/ a set bigger than 7s or AA. so youre in good shape unless he has the T9 and he decided to slowplay it to the river.

nothing really confusing or strange about this hand as far as i can see. maybe im missing something?

[Ulysses]

nothing really confusing or strange about this hand as far as i can see. maybe im missing something?

What about diamonds?

[elysium]

hi ulysses
you've indicated that the CO is a good player. while we can discount somewhat the possibility of AA or JJ, we can also rule out a non-nutish flush on the turn. he would almost surely raise the turn. yea, youda heard from that thing by now. he has AJs and made two pair.

why can we rule out the non-nutish? he's a good player ulysses. he'd only raise in with AJs. AJs includes KQs and any other high two card combos that are suited. does AJs include QJs? if i'm wrong about his having AJs it does. the point i'm making here ulysses is that he doesn't hold a non-nutish flush on the turn, he raised in. he unlikely holds AA because he's a good player and would lower his raising standards in the CO, low risk there, and any high flush would raise on the turn before the fourth diamond landed to get the bets in now. also, that high flush would raise to stop the free-card.

there is only one holding i'm concerned about that he may have that beats you, JTs. but i still feel that he would have raised on the turn before the fourth diamond got there. the risk of youre not winning this hand is low, 1 in 6 or so.

[Diplomat]

huh?

I don't get it E. Your post has my head spinning.

My own thoughts are that a flushdraw is quite possible. Many players would run the raise-the-flop-to-get-a-free-card-on-the-turn play, but if he does, he risks shutting out callers between Ulysses and himself, as well as risks being three-bet.

Another very possible hand is something like AKo with the A of /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif . The turn card gives him outs, or so it would appear, if he had such a holding.

I like your chances of winning this hand, but I would hate to have to call a four-bet. I'd probably call the river raise instead of three-betting. That said, if your opponent plays flush draws in a predictable manner, the three-bet is not bad after all.

Also if he has T9 I think you would have heard from him sooner. With you betting, he may fear -you- have the flush and he needs to find out where he is. The same goes for JJ and AA, or any other set.

Actually, now that I look it over, I like a three-bet more and more.

My only last concern is whether or not this particular opponent would raise the river with only an ace. If so, three-bet. If he tends not to, just call.

Now how's -that- for convoluded! /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

-Diplomat

[mike l.]

i knew i was missing something. dont 3 bet the river.

[ragedyandy]

The only hand I can imagine CO not raising on the flop with is a flush draw. If he had a set of J's wouldn't he raise to charge the flush draw? If he had A8 wouldn't he raise to see where he's at? But CO simply calls. If he has a flush draw he doesn't want to raise BB out (I guess he would if he had small diamonds - but we know he has big cards because he raised 2 limpers BTF). And he only calls both the flop and turn - BB obliges and calls both.

I think he most likely has a flush, he calls the 3-bet without the nut and re-raises with the nut. If he doesn't have a flush, I think his most likely holding is Ad8x, but he raised BTF, so I think that makes Ad8x less likely.

[Hat Trick]

I would have to believe that if any one has the flush or str8 they would have been stupid not to raise or check/raise on the turn when they got it. Also, if someone had the AA they would have been more aggressive all the way. I think you are golden here and I would absolutely re-raise, your raiser probably has 1 ace or Aces up now and is figuring you for KK, QQ, or something like that. The only thing I would be worried about would be the str8 who did not raise the turn because of the flush but if that was the case he would still be worried about that on the river and fold to your raise (did that make any sense?).

[Diplomat]

"I would have to believe that if any one has the flush or str8 they would have been stupid not to raise or check/raise on the turn when they got it."

Why? Why not call and try to trap the big blind for another bet? Why not try to trap Ulysses if he has a modertate-strength hand? Raising the turn is almost out of the question if he holds a flush.

Raising the turn looks like a flush, straight, set, overpair, or bluff. In any case, it looses his action, unless both opponents say it is a bluff.

Incidentally, I like the signature. It was my motto for the last year. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

-Diplomat

[pilchard]

I'd just call the river raise. It's very difficult to see what hand he could have made on the river that he wouldn't have raised with on the flop. The only hand where the A could have helped him is something like AK where he had a /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif . However, that seems unlikely and would he raise the river with this?

It's actually quite likely that he has the flush (you'd think he'd have raised with the straight on the turn not wanting to let a single /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif in cheap). If he's got a flush why didn't he raise on the flop? On the flop he'd have had a flush draw and overcards, or a pair, or some kind of straight draw too. However, he was on your left and so he may not have wanted to drive people out of the pot with his big draw.

This logic holds on the turn. If he has made his flush (possibly the nut) he has no idea just how strong your hand is and so he may not raise wanting to get an overcall from the BB. He also knows that with his position if you check the river he can bet there too.

I'd just call. I take it you would have folded to a 4 bet?

[Lee Jones]

You are so toast. Against an aggressive player like you, I routinely call on the flop with my flush draw rather than raise for a free card. First, I'm afraid I'll knock out the other callers, and second, you'll raise me, so I get the worst of all possible worlds - more bets going in without the right price.

I'd almost always decloak on the turn, but if I'm feeling frisky, I may let you bet the river before I pop it.

You are so toast.

Regards, Lee

[Ulysses]

I'm 95% sure he has the nuts.

Obvious, wasn't it, vehn? AdTd.

You are so toast.

Also 100% correct, Lee. Thanks. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

I'd almost always decloak on the turn

You sure are saying decloak a lot these days. Maybe only twice, but that's still a lot.

Anyway, back to the hand....

This guys always raises the flop w/ a flush draw. Always. Well, almost always, I guess. And he always takes one off w/ overcards. Always. He sometimes waits until the turn to raise w/ a big hand. I should have remembered that again on the river.

So, I put him on a wide range of hands on the flop. On the turn, I thought he either got scared (he was planning to raise AJ on the turn, but diamonds scared him) or picked up some outs (he had something like AdKx).

I also figured he put me on a reasonably-sized Jack. So, on the river, he might raise w/ just an Ace. And he'd definitely pop it one time w/ AJ. That's not what I thought he had though - I thought just AK/AQ w/ Ad. Of course, he 4-bet me and I knew he had the nut flush, not AJ. But I paid him off because I was on slight tilt at the time and I just wanted to see his hand. And right after that I played my QQ hand (Trapping or Trapped).

[elysium]

hi ulysses
remember that this opponent waits until the all clear horn sounds on the river before showing strength. but gee, he gave you a cheap opportunity to fill. hard to believe. but here is what is really strange, he also allowed a free-fourth diamond to land. JTd would do that but wow, it's bizarre U.

is this some kind of wild SP for river surprises? it doesn't make any sense. i'm going to yell for mason.

[ddcpr]

I agree with you on the checkraise, I guess I didn't take into account the other players in the hand. Maybe if it's heads-up a checkraise is a better play. However, how can you put him on AK here? There are plenty of hands he could have that beat you (any higher pocket pair, AJs, who knows maybe even A8s, KJs or JTs). A simply preflop raise from the cutoff isn't really enough to put him on AK. And if he does raise you like you say you want him to, what does that really get you in terms of information? I agree that it may knock out the other two players, but you're toast if he has a pair already (Plus he probably has overcards to come.)

[ragedyandy]

At the end it's only CO and Hero. From Heros description of the hand, let's assume CO cutoff has big cards. Would he raise two limpers BTF with AdKd-QdJd. If CO has the nut, he already has hero betting into him and BB is calling, why not just call until the river and get the extra bet from BB? If CO doesn't have the nut, why put in an extra bet on the turn when his hand might not be best? He might even knock BB out when he wants BB's action those times his hand is good. I think CO should play any flush, small or big exactly as he played this hand.

Did we ever get the results of this one?

[Tommy Angelo]

I got here late and already saw the ending.

I like your raise on the river for lots of reasons. 1)It means you are not algorithmically afraid of three-flushes. 2) It means you aren't afraid of this opponent. 3) And strategically, the raise has chunks of value because a) the three-flush on board protects you from being reraised by higher sets or a straight, and b) if he fourbets, you know, because of a), that he has a flush, and you don't have to pay him off.

"But I paid him off ..."

Oh. Nevermind then. :-)

Very good hand to ponder. It does seem obvious from miles and hours away that he had made a flush on the turn. But in battle, against a dangerous foe, it would have been an exceptionally fine read. I still like your reraise on the river but not as much as I dislike your final call. Besides, you had a chance to -- "I raise the river and fold for one more bet. They look at me as if I'm from Mars" -- and didn't. Don't let those precious opportunities pass you by!

Tommy

[Ulysses]

Besides, you had a chance to -- "I raise the river and fold for one more bet. They look at me as if I'm from Mars" -- and didn't. Don't let those precious opportunities pass you by!

The rest of what you said was good and fine, but this alone was more than enough reason to muck.

And here's the worst part. Last night, I had the opportunity to 4-bet the turn and muck to a 5-bet (by a bigger full house). I can't believe I got a makeup opportunity and passed it by as well!