Single Suited Flop with a Fourth on the Turn

[Triple C]

10-20

Hero open raises UTG with A /forums/images/icons/heart.gif Q /forums/images/icons/heart.gif . All fold to loose-semiaggressive SB who calls. Two players, $50.

Flop comes A /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif Q /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 3 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

SB bets, hero raises, SB 3-bets, hero calls.

Turn is K /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

SB bets, hero calls.

River is 4 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

SB bets, hero folds.

Please comment on play after the flop. Am I foolish to call the turn bet, or am I wimping out on the river in a heads up match? Is his 3-bet on the flop my chance to get out?

Thanks for the comments.

[hot tub man # 1]

I dont think I could fold this hand on the flop just because he 3 bet. You would have to know the player extremely well to do that.

On the turn the king of dimonds is probably the worst card in the deck. I think your decision to call or fold is again player dependant, but I'd probably lean towards folding. The problem with calling the turn is that you commit yourself to make a call on the river no matter what hits.

There are only a few cards at most that are going to change anything on the river. You absolutely cannot call the turn and then fold on the river when a complete brick hits.

[Zele]

I agree w/ hottubman. There's no justification for calling on the turn if you're going to fold to a bet on the river. Your full house draw is a 10:1 shot, and even assuming he'll bet and call a raise if you make the draw, your implied odds are only 8.5:1.

If you will do plan to call a river bet anyway, consider raising the turn. Unless he has the J /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif , he's unlikely to 3-bet it, and he will also probably check it to you on the river, so the showdown will cost you the same as if you had called the turn. This has two advantages. First, he could have flopped a flush with low cards and be forced to fold it right there (unlikely given you say he is a LAP.) Second, if you make your full-house, you'll be practically guaranteed an extra bet on the river if you make your boat, so you'll end up winning the same money as if you had called the turn and then he had bet and called your raise on the river.

[randoGGy]

you could have the same hand. or sb could have an A and a /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif or even just AK. i raise the turn, and see what happens. four /forums/images/icons/diamond.gifs might be just as scary to sb as to you.

[elysium]

hi triple c
what you need to have a feel for is how the SB plays on the flop. if he likes to bet out when he doesn't have it, for example, that info could be very useful.

one question that does come up though, assuming that he varies correctly from the SB, or you haven't played this opponent before, is 'how can this flop have missed you?'.

when your opponent bets into you, instead of going for a check-raise, he is making a suspicious bet. either you are way out in front, or you are hopeless behind. in this situation, you should tend to call and rope it.

notice that on the turn, after having not check-raised the flop, and after action that should tell him that if he checks, you're going to bet, he bets. he doesn't go for the check-raise again. that's suspicious. now while you may not have taken this one down no matter what you did, there are solid reasons for you to at least call. and this calling or roping process should have begun on the flop when he failed to check-raise when you gave him every indication that you would bet when he checked. is there enough room for you to then raise if he bets out again on the turn? no, probably not. if he's bluffing, you don't want to discourage him, and if your trailing far behind but your hand can improve, you would like to see the river cheaply. check-calling here is usually always correct.

on the river you should always call. yes, you can make a fancy fold, but you're then opening yourself up to having shots taken at you on the river. your fold wasn't awful. when your opponent bet, he expected you to call that bet. and yes, you should ask that question often, 'does he expect me to call or fold when he bets?'. but when your call closes the action on the river, the question becomes, 'how frequently does he bluff?'. the answer to that combined with preventing shots being taken at you on the river in similar situations in the future, make calling on the river the clear choice.

[Triple C]

Raising the turn seems like a bad idea to me...If I make my crying calls through to the river, I will be paying the same amount...IF he doesn't have a strong diamond. However, if he continues to bet into me at the river or even 3-bets the turn, I will have to pay much more to see the cards and avoid a weak image of being pushed out easily.

Raising just doesn't seem right to me, at least on the turn.

[Triple C]

Thanks for the post, it had some very good thoughts.

The consensus seems to be that I should have called the river bet, or folded to the turn bet. You seem to be the only one who favors making crying calls down to the wire...I sort of feel like the "call and rope it" strategy on the flop is going to give too much room for a one-card draw or a lower made hand to push me around. Do you really feel that I cannot try to take the initiative here? In retrospect, knowing that the fourth diamond will come on the turn, of course it seems logical to take things slow, but heads-up, with two pair, I would think that the aggressive flop betting would be the goal.

[Triple C]

For some reason, I think that a raise on the turn would be risky, given my holding. The fact is, I would be paying the same amount if I made two crying calls...there doesn't seem to be much advantage to this raise. Furthermore, if the opponent 3-bets the turn, or bets into me on the river, even after the raise, I will be paying more than I bargained for. I know these situations may be less likely than most, however, two crying calls and a raise on the turn will ALWAYS cost me the same amount of money...one just guarantees me a showdown and the other does not.

[Diplomat]

It depends on the player, but it is not a terrible idea. What you are hoping is for him to lay down a hand like A /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif, or the same hand as you.

Of course, if you believe him and don't think you can get him to lay down with a raise, you should fold the turn. You don't have the odds to hit your four-outer (probably more like a three-outer).

-Diplomat

[SoBeDude]

I don't believe he has the flush on the flop. Why would he 3-bet a made flush on the flop, which will probably kill his action?

I think his 3-bet is an attempt to protect a weak hand. This is the more common play I think. So given that, I think you need to 4 bet the flop, then bet the turn.

It allows you to take control of the hand, puts your in the driver's seat, and makes him react to your bets instead of you reacting to his.

-Scott

[hot tub man # 1]

After I got home and thought about this a little, I started thinking this might be a good spot for a turn raise. Depending on what kind of player he is, that is if he is able to lay down a hand, I would serioulsy think about raising here. The reason being I highly doubt he is going to play a big flush like this on the flop.

However if I flopped a really small flush into one or two oppenents, I might play it full steam ahead just like he did. Also, you have shown quite a bit of strength yourself on the flop, so its not out of the question that you would hold a big dimond.

Also, another option that someone else just mentioned was to 4 bet the flop and bet the turn if checked to. I think thats also a pretty good option, it would have kept you from out guessing yourself. All this being said, I still dont think you can fold on the river after calling his turn bet.