Moral codes are unnecessary

[hmkpoker]

A little background before I propose this statement. I am agnostic/atheist, grew up Christian, dabbled in Eastern religion in highschool, majored in psychology and minored in religion in college and just got my BA.

Psychology currently views personal development as something that occurs with broadening social horizons. For example, when we are born, we are selfish to the extent that we don't believe that the world exists when we close our eyes. As children, we are selfish and constantly make fun of others with little or no remorse. As we grow older, we become able to love, feel compassion, act responsibly and, assuming that we develop "properly," eventually the concerns of others and humanity outweigh our own and we become capable of altruism.

ok so here goes...

If humans are genetically "programmed" to benefit from what is beneficial to others, such that it is, in a sense, +EV to help someone else, is there any reason to have a moral code?

I think that a moral code is useful only as a guideline during our selfish years, but eventually it becomes superfluous, unnecessary...maybe even counter-productive.

Thoughts?

[bearly]

yes, the upper paragraph talks about 'socialization', the lower about 'genetic predispositions'. given this mish-mash, how do you arrive at the final paragraph--your conclusion?..................b

[Rduke55]

Not sure if this is relevant to your discussion but oour "preprogramming" is for life in a small, usually interrelated band.

[eOXevious]

We're not programmed, children must be taught the difference between right and wrong. Society will show that most of those with bad influence, do bad things.. which is why Christianity spreads itself out. People must be taught what is the absolute good (God) and absolte evil (Satan) in order to justify what is right or wrong. I am programmed for sex, but was taught not to rape women. I am programmed to eat, but was taught not stuff my face and appreciate everything I get to eat. I am programmed to become angry with someone, but was taught not to kill them.

[carlo]

[ QUOTE ]
People must be taught what is the absolute good (God) and absolte evil (Satan) in order to justify what is right or wrong. I am programmed for sex, but was taught not to rape women. I am programmed to eat, but was taught not stuff my face and appreciate everything I get to eat. I am programmed to become angry with someone, but was taught not to kill them.

[/ QUOTE ]

A consideration of yours and others lives will find this to be patently false. You're speaking of the animal kingdom where there is no morality.

carlo

[hurlyburly]

Wow, you sure miss the mark on children:

[ QUOTE ]
we are selfish to the extent that we don't believe that the world exists when we close our eyes.

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't, at least not for them.

[ QUOTE ]
we are selfish and constantly make fun of others with little or no remorse

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just an expression of curiosity or honesty. I don't know or remember many children that were mean-spirited or unable to have friends. If they are, they weren't born that way and didn't develop. They learn that behavior from bad or incomplete parenting. Of course there can be exceptions, but it can't be more than a minor percentage (channeling DS: <3%).

[ QUOTE ]
As we grow older, we become able to love, feel compassion

[/ QUOTE ]

Even abused kids instinctively love their parents/caregivers. It takes more work to screw a kid up then it does to love them and raise them right.

I guess you are skipping the teens altogether, as well as most of the 20s.

[ QUOTE ]
capable of altruism

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean empathy? My son displays this even at 22 months, he's just not aware of the nuances.

All my nitting aside, I disagree with your final statement. If you enforce a moral code at any stage where the mind is susceptible to incorporating it you can't undo that at a later stage.

[bocablkr]

[ QUOTE ]
People must be taught what is the absolute good (God) and absolte evil (Satan) in order to justify what is right or wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then how are atheists taught what is right and wrong?

[Rduke55]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know or remember many children that were mean-spirited

[/ QUOTE ]

Really?

[ QUOTE ]
It takes more work to screw a kid up then it does to love them and raise them right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really?



[ QUOTE ]
If you enforce a moral code at any stage where the mind is susceptible to incorporating it you can't undo that at a later stage.

[/ QUOTE ]
(emphasis mine)
Really?

[bearly]

there seems to be an inclination to duck the hard questions and lapse into verbal gymnastics (many years ago they really said 'mental masturbation'). so, socialization, genetic 'programming'? need to get the first hypotheses in place before heading out into the underbrush of 'moral codes are unnecesary' unless , of course the op does not feel any obligation to tell us why.............b
'

[carlo]

[ QUOTE ]
Then how are atheists taught what is right and wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you reply to the right poster? /images/graemlins/blush.gif

carlo

[bocablkr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Then how are atheists taught what is right and wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you reply to the right poster? /images/graemlins/blush.gif

carlo

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, it was in response to Eox's post.
"We're not programmed, children must be taught the difference between right and wrong. Society will show that most of those with bad influence, do bad things.. which is why Christianity spreads itself out. People must be taught what is the absolute good (God) and absolte evil (Satan) in order to justify what is right or wrong. I am programmed for sex, but was taught not to rape women. I am programmed to eat, but was taught not stuff my face and appreciate everything I get to eat. I am programmed to become angry with someone, but was taught not to kill them."

[hurlyburly]

Yes, yes and yes. Always go for the absolutes when replying to barely coherent self-defeating arguments (not yours, OPs). That's my line.

[Rduke55]

Gotcha! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[RJT]

If we are programmed as such then either we are programmed with the moral code or we are programmed to interpret (receive) the moral code. Either way, it isn't a matter of needing a moral code. If what you suggest is how it works, then there is a "moral code" or however you want to call the thing that you refer. Or did I miss your point?

[J. Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
A little background before I propose this statement. I am agnostic/atheist, grew up Christian, dabbled in Eastern religion in highschool, majored in psychology and minored in religion in college and just got my BA.

Psychology currently views personal development as something that occurs with broadening social horizons. For example, when we are born, we are selfish to the extent that we don't believe that the world exists when we close our eyes. As children, we are selfish and constantly make fun of others with little or no remorse. As we grow older, we become able to love, feel compassion, act responsibly and, assuming that we develop "properly," eventually the concerns of others and humanity outweigh our own and we become capable of altruism.

ok so here goes...

If humans are genetically "programmed" to benefit from what is beneficial to others, such that it is, in a sense, +EV to help someone else, is there any reason to have a moral code?

I think that a moral code is useful only as a guideline during our selfish years, but eventually it becomes superfluous, unnecessary...maybe even counter-productive.

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with parts of your conclusion, that a moral code is counter-productive, but that necessitates that everyone is on the same page in terms of where morals come from. Then it's really about to what degree people know themselves. Because everybody doesn't know the self from which moral thoughts arise, some generic standard moral code could help keep the confused in the 'ball park'. Adhering to some other principles, besides the ones that are truth to you, though, leads to more confusion about the nature of morals, which would keep the confused, confused. In this sense a moral code would be counter-productive in the long term, and barely satisfactory in the moment, which is what you are saying I think.

Kids have the ability to love/be loved, show compassion, it's their attachments, like with adults, that make them think they are different than they are.

- Jeff