Calculating ICM...Newbie Question

I have been observing dethgrind's post for calculating ICM in the FAQ and it seems like a pretty long problem to calculate out when your in the middle of a tournament with a time limit to act. I think I wiould have a hard time inputing these numbers and doing all these calculations when playing in one tournament much less 4 tabling like I usually do. Is there something I missing here or does it just take practice to be able to do these type of calculations on the go...i would think it would be impossible to 8 table while doing this...thanks in advance...

[Nicholasp27]

u shouldn't be doing these during a game
icm also just tells u the equity given chip stacks

eastbay's sngpt at sitngo-analyzer.com takes into account blinds, positioning and opp calling ranges and then calculates the % of the time u'll bust, u'll win the blinds, u'll get called and win the hand...and then does the icm calculations on those to figure out if it's +/- to push/fold

it allows u to open your hand histories in it and then click on each <10bb hand where u can be first in pot or call a push and see if it was +/- ev

by reviewing the hhs every day and then playing around with it when u get surprising results, u'll begin to build 'models' that u then use during tournaments to know what to push/fold with when


ie, one hu model is if either of u have <7.5bbs, u can push any2 in the sb

[Slim Pickens]

You're not really supposed to do them on the fly. It's more for postgame review. By the way, ICM just refers to converting chip stacks to a dollar value from the prize pool. It's a separate step to use those $ values, along with an estimation of your opponents' hand ranges, to calculate the $EV of a push/fold/call bubble decision.

Do you guys think it's necessary to know how ICM is calculated to become a really good push bot? Isn't using SNG PT after every SNG and checking all bubble decisions enought to get a feel?

[Nicholasp27]

u don't need to know HOW icm is calculated, that is, the algorithm behind it

but u should understand why sngpt gives u the answer that it does...is it due to blind sizes, chip stack layout, positioning, your opp's ranges, the strength of ur hand, the number of players left, etc

[Slim Pickens]

SNGPT is much more useful for checking your intuition on hand ranges than anything else. I'm getting to be a sick pushbot becuase I'm paying attention to the hands people show down to better understand their calling range.

Ok, i guess my question then is..how can i incorporate those statistics that i will get into a situation where say i have AJ and am slightly the big stack with 4 left and 3rd in chips pushes...

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, i guess my question then is..how can i incorporate those statistics that i will get into a situation where say i have AJ and am slightly the big stack with 4 left and 3rd in chips pushes...

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, so you go to SNGPT and put in the chip stacks and blinds and such. You click "compute" and thr arrow points to "Fold." Easy fold, right? Wrong. Change the "Push Range." You'll probably be able to find one of the preset ranges that flips this from a fold to a call. Change the blind amounts. That might also change your action. What your learning is that the answer is always "it depends," but now you're learning exactly what it depends on.

Thanks, you have been most helpful...

[Costanza]

Sounded like a sarcastic reply there...

I think everyone who is trying to take playing SnG's seriously ought to work out a few ICM caluculations by hand a few times. I think this really helps you get a "feel" for what should be going through your mind when you're deciding whether or not it's OK to go ahead and push that 32o from the small blind when it's folded around to you. If you don't know how to do this, post a hand and I'd be happy to lead you throught the necessary calculations.

Once you've done this for yourself a few times, SnG Power Tools becomes a very valuable tool because the necessary calculations are a bit tedious and SnGPT does a great job of automating this for you.

After you've used SnGPT a good bit, you'll get to the point where yor know what it's going to tell you before you click the calculate button. And that's when SnGPT has paid for itself.

So, the short answer to your original question is that it takes practice, and eastbay's program will make the practicing go quicker. But, really... if you post a sample hand I'll try to get you on the right track.

This is made up but it is similar to a tough decsision I faced the other day. I am in the small blind. Blinds are 150-300. My hand is AK offsuit.

Hero- 2350
BB- 2100
UTG- 1700
Button- 1400
(Stacks are after the blinds are put in.)

Action: UTG folds and Button goes all in. He seems to be unexperienced and has called some hands down with marginal holdings. What's my play...

[Insty]

[ QUOTE ]
Action: UTG folds and Button goes all in. He seems to be unexperienced and has called some hands down with marginal holdings. What's my play...

[/ QUOTE ]

What hand range is Button pushing?
Any Two? Only AA? Something inbetween - what?

P.S.
Puuuuuuuussssssssssshhhhhhh!!