160K in 1 month for a NL novice- easy? [Archive]

JohnnyHumongous

10-13-2005, 02:09 PM

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10/20 and some 5/10.
-James

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I'm a limit player, so I don't really know comparable winrates at NL. winning 160K in a month at 10/20 limit would be immensely phenomenal, but at the same time I know NL supposedly has less variance... so that must mean NL players expect to make 10BB/100 or so?? Please elaborate if possible...

JohnnyHumongous

10-13-2005, 02:11 PM

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he is good at poker, ran really hot, and likely had played a lot of NL before this month.

someone lock this.

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What's your problem dude? It's an honest question.

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Honest but worthless.

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Nah.

10-13-2005, 02:14 PM

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I only made about 114k from NL. -James

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How much did you start with, what sites did you play, how did you do it?

James282

10-13-2005, 02:38 PM

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I only made about 114k from NL. -James

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How much did you start with, what sites did you play, how did you do it?

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How much did I start with? I was overbankrolled to play in pretty much any NL game on the net, assuming I was a winner.
I played 10/20 on Party and that's pretty much it.
-James

Paluka

10-13-2005, 02:39 PM

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I only made about 114k from NL. -James

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How much did you start with, what sites did you play, how did you do it?

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How much did I start with? I was overbankrolled to play in pretty much any NL game on the net, assuming I was a winner.
I played 10/20 on Party and that's pretty much it.
-James

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James you are leaving out the fact that you started out with your tremendous good looks and charm.

10-13-2005, 02:50 PM

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I only made about 114k from NL. -James

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How much did you start with, what sites did you play, how did you do it?

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How much did I start with? I was overbankrolled to play in pretty much any NL game on the net, assuming I was a winner.
I played 10/20 on Party and that's pretty much it.
-James

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What does that mean? Are you a millionaire, you can afford any limits etc (100k bankroll+)?

I don't play much online try to stick to live and AC. Not looking to get flamed, but honestly interested in how much you had compared to how much you made.

JihadOnTheRiver

10-13-2005, 02:53 PM

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I only made about 114k from NL.

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This made me laugh for 3 seconds. Then I got the desire to fight.

10-13-2005, 03:05 PM

i mean james are you extremely rich?

Paluka

10-13-2005, 03:06 PM

I don't understand these stupid questions. The guy has been playing 30/60 and 100/200 and so forth for a long time. he won some money. then he decided to play 10/20 NL instead, and he won a lot of money.

10-13-2005, 03:10 PM

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I don't understand these stupid questions. The guy has been playing 30/60 and 100/200 and so forth for a long time. he won some money. then he decided to play 10/20 NL instead, and he won a lot of money.

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Some people have'nt been on 2+2 since 2003, so a little background would be nice. Chill out, there are some new heads on here.

bobbyi

10-13-2005, 03:13 PM

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winning 160K in a month at 10/20 limit would be immensely phenomenal

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Huh? He won the money playing NL, not 10/20 limit. Wasn't that the point of the thread? When James plays limit he plays considerably higher than 10/20, as other posts have indicated.

rohjoh

10-13-2005, 03:15 PM

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How did James282 pull it off?

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160 is a good month at 10-20.

He probably got a lot of hands like this at 3-4 tables at a time.

Total number of players : 10
Seat 5: MATH1243 ( $3467 )
Seat 6: smallstakes ( $676 )
Seat 7: hero ( $3512 )
Seat 4: rollofcoins ( $1024 )
Seat 3: JSChoi ( $2217 )
Seat 8: UnclePaul4 ( $940 )
Seat 9: kogo9 ( $1960 )
Seat 2: cashcastle ( $0 )
Seat 10: Isabelle34 ( $2000 )
Seat 1: xxpunisherxx ( $2000 )
JSChoi is sitting out.
rollofcoins posts small blind [$10].
MATH1243 posts big blind [$20].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to hero [ 3s 3h ]
JSChoi has left the table.
smallstakes calls [$20].
hero calls [$20].
UnclePaul4 folds.
kogo9 folds.
rollofcoins calls [$10].
MATH1243 raises [$105].
smallstakes folds.
hero calls [$105].
rollofcoins folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3c, 5s, 6s ]
MATH1243 is all-In [$3342]
hero calls [$3342].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 6c ]
** Dealing River ** [ 4h ]
MATH1243 shows [ As, Kc ] a pair of sixes.
hero shows [ 3s, 3h ] a full house, Threes full of sixes.
hero wins $6971 from the main pot with a full house, Threes full of sixes.

PGarlic

10-13-2005, 03:26 PM

That hand is sickening, Jesus.

JohnnyHumongous

10-13-2005, 03:49 PM

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winning 160K in a month at 10/20 limit would be immensely phenomenal

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Huh? He won the money playing NL, not 10/20 limit. Wasn't that the point of the thread? When James plays limit he plays considerably higher than 10/20, as other posts have indicated.

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yes I am fully aware

why do you think I posted in the NL forum...

I wanted to know what the comparable expected winrate at 10/20 NL would be in comparison with 10/20 limit (where 3BB/100 is excellent). It must be much much higher, because a 3BB/100 winner at 10/20 limit would win 160K in a month roughly never. Not to hold your hand through this analysis too much, but the obvious conclusion is that 10/20 NL players must win at a much higher rate per 100 hands. I don't play NL and I accordingly have no clue of what a "good" winrate is. Is it OK if I ask in this forum? Thank you.

And, as I also said, NL has the reputation of having LESS variance than limit so it is even LESS likely for 'outliers' (freakishly lucky months) to occur... So the 160K month should be more repeatable at NL than a 160K month at limit. If James282 could have a 160K month at 10/20 NL we can expect top NL players to have similar types of months with relative consistency... I want to know if this hypothesis is correct.

Yeti

10-13-2005, 03:53 PM

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And, as I also said, NL has the reputation of having LESS variance than limit so it is even LESS likely for 'outliers' (freakishly lucky months) to occur... So the 160K month should be more repeatable at NL than a 160K month at limit. If James282 could have a 160K month at 10/20 NL we can expect top NL players to have similar types of months with relative consistency... I want to know if this hypothesis is correct.

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I'm guessing James ran better than anyone last month. This month, it will be a totally different guy. Same for next month. It's likely he will never have another month even close to this.

ghostface

10-13-2005, 03:55 PM

He made $3 a hand. Thats 15BB/100.

jhall23

10-13-2005, 03:56 PM

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winning 160K in a month at 10/20 limit would be immensely phenomenal

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Huh? He won the money playing NL, not 10/20 limit. Wasn't that the point of the thread? When James plays limit he plays considerably higher than 10/20, as other posts have indicated.

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yes I am fully aware

why do you think I posted in the NL forum...

I wanted to know what the comparable expected winrate at 10/20 NL would be in comparison with 10/20 limit (where 3BB/100 is excellent). It must be much much higher, because a 3BB/100 winner at 10/20 limit would win 160K in a month roughly never. Not to hold your hand through this analysis too much, but the obvious conclusion is that 10/20 NL players must win at a much higher rate per 100 hands. I don't play NL and I accordingly have no clue of what a "good" winrate is. Is it OK if I ask in this forum? Thank you.

And, as I also said, NL has the reputation of having LESS variance than limit so it is even LESS likely for 'outliers' (freakishly lucky months) to occur... So the 160K month should be more repeatable at NL than a 160K month at limit. If James282 could have a 160K month at 10/20 NL we can expect top NL players to have similar types of months with relative consistency... I want to know if this hypothesis is correct.

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Of course your right, it would be virtually impossible to wind 160K at 10/20 limit.

But 10/20 No-limit is a much bigger game, it probably plays more like 50/100 or 100/200 limit in regards to size. So you are not comparing similar games.

Not sure what winrates are possible at 10/20NL, at the smaller games a good player can beat them for >10BB/100.

JohnnyHumongous

10-13-2005, 03:59 PM

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Not sure what winrates are possible at 10/20NL, at the smaller games a good player can beat them for >10BB/100.

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Really... and that is fairly consistent month to month? Do NL players "run bad" in the sense that a 10BB/100 winner could have a down month? In limit there is much more variance, yet if it were possible to win 10BB/100 that player would never have a losing month (or week or day probably). What is the worst month a 10BB/100 winner could expect to have at NL? I know it's a lot of questions, thanks for bearing with me.

James282

10-13-2005, 04:18 PM

The 10/20 has a ton of variance. It's going to be tough for people to answer your questions if you don't know which questions to ask. You also didn't even read my responses to you when I said I didn't make 160k playing NL. Post questions like this in the small stakes NL forum or the beginner forum, as these sorts of inquiries aren't helpful for anybody.
-James

johnnycakes

10-13-2005, 04:23 PM

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I wanted to know what the comparable expected winrate at 10/20 NL would be in comparison with 10/20 limit (where 3BB/100 is excellent).

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When you say "10/20 NL" the "10/20" part is the blinds.
When you say "10/20 limit" the "10/20" part is the stakes.
The limit game with 10/20 blinds is 20/40.

So, when you say xxBB/100 at NL, you are saying xx BIG BLINDS per 100.
When you say xxBB/100 at limit, you are saying xx BIG BETS per 100.

Therefore the xxBB/100 NL should be at least twice as high as the xxBB/100 limit at comparible stakes (what is "comparible stakes" is another argument).

HoldEmKillah

10-13-2005, 04:23 PM

I'll give my take although there are lots of old threads about winrates, etc. AT NL100 and below a good player can make around 15bb/100 (all this according to PT BB's btw). At 2/4 and 3/6NL, a really good player can make 7-8bb/100 (I'm at 5.5 at both).

Although I haven't played enough 5/10 and higher I would assume that 7bb/100 is maxin' it out so to speak and that a good player can be happy making 4-5bb/100. Higher limit players can speak better about those winrates at these levels though.

JohnnyHumongous

10-13-2005, 04:24 PM

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The 10/20 has a ton of variance. It's going to be tough for people to answer your questions if you don't know which questions to ask. You also didn't even read my responses to you when I said I didn't make 160k playing NL. Post questions like this in the small stakes NL forum or the beginner forum, as these sorts of inquiries aren't helpful for anybody.
-James

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Okie dokie man.

Voltron87

10-13-2005, 04:30 PM

1. calling james a poker novice if he has playing very high stakes limit games is just plain incorrect and misleading

2. i wonder if someone will make a thread if he goes on a 40K downswing or breaks even for a month. most people on this forum only see one side in the threads that are made.

JohnnyHumongous

10-13-2005, 04:39 PM

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1. calling james a poker novice if he has playing very high stakes limit games is just plain incorrect and misleading

2. i wonder if someone will make a thread if he goes on a 40K downswing or breaks even for a month. most people on this forum only see one side in the threads that are made.

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I didn't say poker novice, I said NL novice, which is exactly how he presented himself in the interview he did. See the title? You can have all the limit experience you want but if you haven't played very much NL you are a NL novice in my book.

as for #2, it's been presented as mathematical fact by people "in the know" on these boards that NL has less variance than limit. Thus running at 15BB/100 in NL over "many many hands" should mean that it is incredibly unlikely to have that kind of 40K loss in a month or some such, because that would be a freak occurence on the order of many standard deviations. But yes, point well taken that most people do only see one side of the coin in poker, hence why they think a guy who wins $1 million on TV is a millionaire when oftentimes this isn't close to the truth.

Voltron87

10-13-2005, 05:27 PM

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1. calling james a poker novice if he has playing very high stakes limit games is just plain incorrect and misleading

2. i wonder if someone will make a thread if he goes on a 40K downswing or breaks even for a month. most people on this forum only see one side in the threads that are made.

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I didn't say poker novice, I said NL novice, which is exactly how he presented himself in the interview he did. See the title? You can have all the limit experience you want but if you haven't played very much NL you are a NL novice in my book.

as for #2, it's been presented as mathematical fact by people "in the know" on these boards that NL has less variance than limit. Thus running at 15BB/100 in NL over "many many hands" should mean that it is incredibly unlikely to have that kind of 40K loss in a month or some such, because that would be a freak occurence on the order of many standard deviations. But yes, point well taken that most people do only see one side of the coin in poker, hence why they think a guy who wins $1 million on TV is a millionaire when oftentimes this isn't close to the truth.

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1. its still very misleading

2. youre missing the point.

Ulysses

10-13-2005, 05:48 PM

Comparing 10/20NL to 10/20 limit is like comparing something really big to something really small.

Ulysses

10-13-2005, 05:49 PM

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How did James282 pull it off?

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He played well and also got very lucky.

KaneKungFu123

10-13-2005, 05:55 PM

just because james is a nl novice and you are also, doesnt mean you can expect to win the same amount as him. he plays 300/600, you play 10/20....

James282

10-13-2005, 06:07 PM

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And, as I also said, NL has the reputation of having LESS variance than limit so it is even LESS likely for 'outliers' (freakishly lucky months) to occur... So the 160K month should be more repeatable at NL than a 160K month at limit. If James282 could have a 160K month at 10/20 NL we can expect top NL players to have similar types of months with relative consistency... I want to know if this hypothesis is correct.

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I'm guessing James ran better than anyone last month. This month, it will be a totally different guy. Same for next month. It's likely he will never have another month even close to this.

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FWIW I totally agree with this statement.
-James

JohnnyHumongous

10-13-2005, 06:09 PM

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just because james is a nl novice and you are also, doesnt mean you can expect to win the same amount as him. he plays 300/600, you play 10/20....

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Too true, too true. But looking at the success of others allows me to estimate what kind of success (magnitude and probability of success) I might have making the same transition. It's like a comp valuation in investment banking.

KaneKungFu123

10-13-2005, 06:10 PM

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just because james is a nl novice and you are also, doesnt mean you can expect to win the same amount as him. he plays 300/600, you play 10/20....

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Too true, too true. But looking at the success of others allows me to estimate what kind of success (magnitude and probability of success) I might have making the same transition. It's like a comp valuation in investment banking.

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i understand, but you are better off asking in ssnl, where people's positons are more likely to resemble yours.

JohnnyHumongous

10-13-2005, 06:12 PM

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Comparing 10/20NL to 10/20 limit is like comparing something really big to something really small.

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Yeah, I guess I really wasn't clear in what I was saying. What I meant was, both are denominated at the same level (10/20), and both are measured in the same denomination (one BB=$20). I was speculating on what a top notch 10/20 NL player would expect to win in terms of BB/100. I am fully aware of the variation in terms of skill and stakes between the two games.

James282

10-13-2005, 06:14 PM

10/20 in NL denotes blinds, 10/20 in limit denotes stakes.
-James

KaneKungFu123

10-13-2005, 06:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

And, as I also said, NL has the reputation of having LESS variance than limit so it is even LESS likely for 'outliers' (freakishly lucky months) to occur... So the 160K month should be more repeatable at NL than a 160K month at limit. If James282 could have a 160K month at 10/20 NL we can expect top NL players to have similar types of months with relative consistency... I want to know if this hypothesis is correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing James ran better than anyone last month. This month, it will be a totally different guy. Same for next month. It's likely he will never have another month even close to this.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW I totally agree with this statement.
-James

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james,

A tip for next month: dont reraise $2,000 with A8 preflop. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

James282

10-13-2005, 06:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

And, as I also said, NL has the reputation of having LESS variance than limit so it is even LESS likely for 'outliers' (freakishly lucky months) to occur... So the 160K month should be more repeatable at NL than a 160K month at limit. If James282 could have a 160K month at 10/20 NL we can expect top NL players to have similar types of months with relative consistency... I want to know if this hypothesis is correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing James ran better than anyone last month. This month, it will be a totally different guy. Same for next month. It's likely he will never have another month even close to this.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW I totally agree with this statement.
-James

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james,

A tip for next month: dont reraise $2,000 with A8 preflop. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

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Lol, don't raise to 200 everytime me and some people want to see a cheap flop /images/graemlins/smile.gif Also, there is one way to stop me from doing so! Click the middle button after I do it /images/graemlins/grin.gif
-James

EDIT: I was also suited.

JohnnyHumongous

10-13-2005, 06:17 PM

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just because james is a nl novice and you are also, doesnt mean you can expect to win the same amount as him. he plays 300/600, you play 10/20....

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Too true, too true. But looking at the success of others allows me to estimate what kind of success (magnitude and probability of success) I might have making the same transition. It's like a comp valuation in investment banking.

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i understand, but you are better off asking in ssnl, where people's positons are more likely to resemble yours.

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Fair enough. But at least now there is somewhat of a post-mortem on what happened in James' great month (hot running + good amount of skill due to certain limit skills James had developed previously and from reading the NL boards here). It is a fantastic performance, no one's going to dispute that, especially for someone who (as he explained in his interview) is relatively brand-new to NL, which is known as a low variance game. It was intriguing (and potentially important) to know what drivers were underlying the results James put up.

DcifrThs

10-13-2005, 06:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
just because james is a nl novice and you are also, doesnt mean you can expect to win the same amount as him. he plays 300/600, you play 10/20....

[/ QUOTE ]

Too true, too true. But looking at the success of others allows me to estimate what kind of success (magnitude and probability of success) I might have making the same transition. It's like a comp valuation in investment banking.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, yea, and do you and buy a firm based on solely comps??

hell no! so why would you assume that you're experience will be well proxied by a comp analysis?

Barron

KaneKungFu123

10-13-2005, 06:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

And, as I also said, NL has the reputation of having LESS variance than limit so it is even LESS likely for 'outliers' (freakishly lucky months) to occur... So the 160K month should be more repeatable at NL than a 160K month at limit. If James282 could have a 160K month at 10/20 NL we can expect top NL players to have similar types of months with relative consistency... I want to know if this hypothesis is correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing James ran better than anyone last month. This month, it will be a totally different guy. Same for next month. It's likely he will never have another month even close to this.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW I totally agree with this statement.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

james,

A tip for next month: dont reraise $2,000 with A8 preflop. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, don't raise to 200 everytime me and some people want to see a cheap flop /images/graemlins/smile.gif Also, there is one way to stop me from doing so! Click the middle button after I do it /images/graemlins/grin.gif
-James

EDIT: I was also suited.

[/ QUOTE ]

if i am bluffing, you dont need to put it all to get me to give up, especially UTG.

JohnnyHumongous

10-13-2005, 06:20 PM

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10/20 in NL denotes blinds, 10/20 in limit denotes stakes.
-James

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Yup, but when a 10/20 NL player says they're winning at 10BB/100 they're referring to blinds, if I'm correct, so the winrates would then be equivalent... 3BB/100 at 10/20 NL = 3BB/100 at 10/20 limit... $60 per 100 hands... or is this false?

DcifrThs

10-13-2005, 06:25 PM

i think the real post of the thread was Yeti's

james plays good poker. period. NL/limit whatever. i bet if i taught him what i know about lowball he'd pick it up in no time flat. clearly comparing NL he to lowball isn't fair b/c lowball is easier by a wide margin...just an example.

combine that with a 1/100,000 or so run (maybe a bit shorter on the odds) and you have a 114k month in a game requiring a 50k br.

also, i play with james a great deal as do quite a few of you who play 10/20NL (you also probably play a lot w/ me and some others) so you can see for yourself how he did it. get all in, win pot, repeat. sounds easy lol.

i guess now im rambling but the bottom line is go ahead and try to repeat what he did and you'll live many lifetimes wondering why it wont happen for you.

Barron

JohnnyHumongous

10-13-2005, 06:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
just because james is a nl novice and you are also, doesnt mean you can expect to win the same amount as him. he plays 300/600, you play 10/20....

[/ QUOTE ]

Too true, too true. But looking at the success of others allows me to estimate what kind of success (magnitude and probability of success) I might have making the same transition. It's like a comp valuation in investment banking.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, yea, and do you and buy a firm based on solely comps??

hell no! so why would you assume that you're experience will be well proxied by a comp analysis?

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. That's why you don't see my jumping into NL with a big chunk of my roll. Corporations will use comp analysis in addition to other valuation techniques. Same applies for me... if I could find a player with similar experience to me at limit poker, similar intellect, similar skills etc. who all of a sudden started winning $100K per month at triple draw, I would not be out of line in thinking that perhaps I too could succeed at triple draw at a similar level if I gave it a try.

If the only difference between James and me is that he has a lot more limit experience and has done some reading on these NL boards, then I should be able to expect that, with the same experience and education, I too can have success at NL. Will that success be worth the time and risk? Am I better off focusing on limit for now in terms of EV and risk? The more information I get, the better decisions I can make about such matters.

TheWorstPlayer

10-13-2005, 06:32 PM

Would it astonish you to know the people have wondered about switching from limit to NL before? Or that some of them have even started threads on the topic?

JihadOnTheRiver

10-13-2005, 06:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
10/20 in NL denotes blinds, 10/20 in limit denotes stakes.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup, but when a 10/20 NL player says they're winning at 10BB/100 they're referring to blinds, if I'm correct, so the winrates would then be equivalent... 3BB/100 at 10/20 NL = 3BB/100 at 10/20 limit... $60 per 100 hands... or is this false?

[/ QUOTE ]
Generally NL results are denoted as PTBB/100 within the 2P2 community. At the 2000NL games (10/20 blinds) Poker Tracker will recognize a "BB" (read "Big Bet" not "Big Blind") as 2x the big blind, or $40. So when someone refers to their win rate at 2000NL being 5PTBB/100, they're winning $200/100 hands. Its rather important to say whether you mean PTBB/100, or BigBlinds/100. I think that's right...

-JOTR

PS. Either way James ran hot and played well, and I'm jealous. Congrats.

JihadOnTheRiver

10-13-2005, 06:42 PM

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That's why you don't see my jumping into NL with a big chunk of my roll.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure that James stated that he did not exactly risk a "big chunk" of his roll. In fact, he said that he was way the f over-rolled for 2000NL.

If he's playing 300/600 limit, lets say he's "taking a shot". As he said in his interview, just taking 50-100BB's up to the next level to give it a try is acceptable. So lets be generous and say that he only allotted 50BBs. That's $300K that he is willing to dance with. I doubt that a guy with his head on straight is gonna put himself into this situation with < than that, and you can bet that he has more than just that "shot" sitting around.

Now lets assume he plays super LAG with high variance. In NL, we judge our BR management by buy-ins to our game of choice. In his case, 1 buy-in = $2K. Someone out there will say that high variance needs a BR of 30+ buy-ins. $60K. That's not that much in his position.

So I think that you need to realize that although James is a "NL novice", this is not even close to a significant portion of his BR. And I am guessing that was a very important part of his success.

-JOTR

bobbyi

10-13-2005, 06:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If he's playing 300/600 limit, lets say he's "taking a shot". As he said in his interview, just taking 50-100BB's up to the next level to give it a try is acceptable. So lets be generous and say that he only allotted 50BBs. That's $300K that he is willing to dance with.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure that 50BBs at 300/600 is not $300k.

JihadOnTheRiver

10-13-2005, 06:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he's playing 300/600 limit, lets say he's "taking a shot". As he said in his interview, just taking 50-100BB's up to the next level to give it a try is acceptable. So lets be generous and say that he only allotted 50BBs. That's $300K that he is willing to dance with.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure that 50BBs at 300/600 is not $300k.

[/ QUOTE ]
lol my bust. 1 too many zeros. either way my point was merely that this is not a big chunk of his br. man i'm getting more stupiderest by the minute

James282

10-13-2005, 06:53 PM

Hey Kane, that is true, how much would you consider reraising if you had the inclination that your opponent did not have a hand that he really wanted to see a flop with? I'm asking seriously, these are the sorts of things I haven't really gotten a firm grasp on.
-James

KaneKungFu123

10-13-2005, 07:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Kane, that is true, how much would you consider reraising if you had the inclination that your opponent did not have a hand that he really wanted to see a flop with? I'm asking seriously, these are the sorts of things I haven't really gotten a firm grasp on.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

its hard because when people make this play its hard to judge if they are smart of a donk (which is why i like it).

against myself, id probably have just reraised to like $450-500.