View Full Version : UB $100 hand - first level
Nordberg
10-13-2005, 11:34 AM
Somewhat interesting hand from the UB $100 last night.
First level so we have like 4 million big blinds. Typical ub table I have leggggggggggggggggggggggggggggy to my left and doublelucky a few more to the left. Doublelucky raises UTG or UTG+1, MP calls (I do not know this player), I have 3s6s in the SB and I call, and legy re-raises to approx 160 from the BB. Doublelucky calls, MP call, I call.
Flop is As 2s 5s. I check, legy bets pot, doublelucky flat calls, MP gives it a thought and then raises all in. All of the players in the pot have me covered.
What should be my play?
Pepsquad
10-13-2005, 12:01 PM
What do you mean "What do I do?". This is why you called with xxsuited.
Fold, it is too early and the chances that one of the three has a higher flush than you are reasonably strong, and then you would be drawing to a 4 of spades only. If the guy that pushed in might just have the king of spades and is making a move, or he could have a higher flush than you already, or his worst scenario is that he has 2 pair or a set. If he has 2 pair you are in great shape, but he probably doesn't. You have to beware of the other 2 players having a higher flush than you already. So I would fold.
Rex Ruthless
10-13-2005, 12:54 PM
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What do you mean "What do I do?". This is why you called with xxsuited.
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ditto . . . get it all in and hope another spade doesn't come or the board doesn't pair
between the 3 of them, there could be AxKs, AA (legggy), KsXx, 55, 33, A5, and so on. you have to get in here.
plus, if you're behind you still have an out. and thats hot.
what kinda flop u looking for??? 666? I think you take the gamble and try and triple up here. Plus the 4 of spades can always come. In addition, if you think about it who is going to overbet the pot enormously with the nut flush? He is trying to kill a flush draw such as the ace of spades. I put him on AK or AQ, something that doesn't want to see a fourth spade which is perfect for you because your gonna be a huge favorite. In harrington he has an example like this except instead of having the flush he has the straight w/ no draw to a flush. I think this is a good chance for you to triple up.
Nordberg
10-13-2005, 01:43 PM
yes, I play strictly to flop quads. Missed again.
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yes, I play strictly to flop quads. Missed again.
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...just 6666?? or are you including 3333 also. if not, you may have a leak
Nordberg
10-13-2005, 01:57 PM
I will fold if I have bottom quads.
woodguy
10-13-2005, 03:34 PM
Doublelucky scares me more than the push.
That's too much heat for a 6 high flush.
Pusher probably has a set, but what does double flat call with that doesn't beat you? If he were drawing to K high flush I would expect a raise, not a flat call.
Nothing wrong with folding when you think you are beat.
Regards,
Woodguy
You guys are all ignoring that even if he is beaten, he has the straight flush redraw. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif
I almost certainly get it in, and just sort of accept it if I'm beaten, which will happen occasionally.
But I can also reasonably convince myself that leggy has AA, doublelucky has AxKs or something, and other MP has 55. Or, at least, I'm willing to convince myself of that. But I don't mind busting out very early if I'm taking a shot at a huge pot with a strong hand.
woodguy
10-13-2005, 03:48 PM
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You guys are all ignoring that even if he is beaten, he has the straight flush redraw
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You didn't phrase it properly.
I think you are supposed to say "the good thing about a move like this is that if you are behind you have 1 out" /images/graemlins/grin.gif
I can discount the first bet as a probe, and the push as someone who doesn't want to see another spade, but the flat call of the pot sized bet is 500 chips a that point, that makes me muck my 6 high flush.
Regards,
Woodguy
Pepsquad
10-13-2005, 04:15 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Doublelucky scares me more than the push.
That's too much heat for a 6 high flush.
Pusher probably has a set, but what does double flat call with that doesn't beat you? If he were drawing to K high flush I would expect a raise, not a flat call.
Nothing wrong with folding when you think you are beat.
Regards,
Woodguy
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While I agree that DoubleLucky is the most concerning opponent, I disagree that his flat call signals a higher flush. Wood, I'm curious as to why you would expect a raise from Double Lucky with the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif. If he's on the nut flush draw he's not in a position to buy a free turn with two left to act behind him. With his UTG raise pre-flop I'm just as inclined to put him on QQ/JJ with a spade, a set or a big ace. No way I'm folding this. There are too many other plausible holdings.
Pepsquad
10-13-2005, 04:19 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Doublelucky scares me more than the push.
That's too much heat for a 6 high flush.
Pusher probably has a set, but what does double flat call with that doesn't beat you? If he were drawing to K high flush I would expect a raise, not a flat call.
Nothing wrong with folding when you think you are beat.
Regards,
Woodguy
[/ QUOTE ]
While I agree that DoubleLucky is the most concerning opponent, I disagree that his flat call signals a higher flush. Wood, I'm curious as to why you would expect a raise from Double Lucky with the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif. If he's on the nut flush draw he's not in a position to buy a free turn with two left to act behind him. With his UTG raise pre-flop I'm just as inclined to put him on QQ/JJ with a spade, a set or a big ace. No way I'm folding this. There are too many other plausible holdings.
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Edit: Okay, I realize it would be highly unlikely he has a set, but the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif, two pair and high PP are possible.
adanthar
10-13-2005, 04:23 PM
Nothing horribly wrong with the first call, but I fold this one to the reraise. At this point you need to flop 2 pair to win.
So you flop a flush, instead. Typical exercise: put all three of them on hands you beat. You beat legs, for sure. You may or may not beat doublelucky - I don't know his game well...but his most likely hand is AxKs. I do not see a flush calling this bet, because KsKx might have the odds to call a push by now (I don't know UB starting stacks) and will certainly call a raise, a big ace will get all in, AA will, etc. If he has a flush, unless it's exactly K /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif, he played it bad.
MP has a flush or a set. I think he has 55 more often than some bizarre spades, especially because at least one spade is in doublelucky's hand.
I call, and then turn the straight flush to make sure because I'm just that cool.
woodguy
10-13-2005, 05:02 PM
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If he's on the nut flush draw he's not in a position to buy a free turn with two left to act behind him.
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He can buy the button and put legggy to the test with a raise, which is what I would expect him to do with every K /images/graemlins/spade.gif Xx hand......except up reflection, maybe he flat calls with Ax Ks as he may think he has leggggy tied and he is freelrolling to the flush.
I would raise K /images/graemlins/spade.gif x here, especially AxK /images/graemlins/spade.gif as I know if I get my spade I'm not getting anymore action, so I want to get the pot growing now or more reasonably, since I have the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif I know no one else has the nut flush so I'm raising to take it down...plus donks like me like to build the pot with draws so we can have the right odds to call when we get put all in.
/images/graemlins/grin.gif
His flat call doesn't make sense to me w/ K /images/graemlins/spade.gif Xx as he's getting no action if he hits.
That and flat calls of pot sized bets with 2 to act behind are usually monsters trying to encourage action.
Regards,
Woodguy
mikeymer
10-13-2005, 05:21 PM
I say you call, show the best hand, doublelucky shows AK no spade, leggy folds, and the other guy shows 22 for a set... and spikes quads on the river.
just a hunch though.
adanthar
10-13-2005, 05:23 PM
He spikes quads after Nordberg turns the straight flush though, right?
looks like you push and proceed to get a lot of chips. although there is a chance that there may be a higher flush (almost certainly a higher draw(more likely?), it is unlikely. also higher flush draw is drawing thin as you hold two spades.
I have found that many players that i do not know (MP in your hand) in online tournies push A x early in tournies on those flops; this esp when they hit 2p on flop.
It does look like you are ahead though...
ZeroPointMachine
10-13-2005, 07:50 PM
There's a higher flush draw, a set or a made flush.
If you are not drawing to your one lonely out you are still going to lose more than 30% of the time.
Is there a made flush 20% of the time or more here?
I don't know. But I can throw this away and convince myself it was the right play. If I call and I'm wrong I can't fix that.
My fragile ego mucks....
SossMan
10-13-2005, 08:09 PM
how deep are we talking here? I haven't played UB for quite a while, but iirc, they start w/ 2500 and like 10-25 blinds? I don't think that 100x is deep enough to fold given this is an unknown player who can have a much wider range of hands that is either semi bluffing, protecting against the semibluff, protecting the best hand.
I go ahead and get it in because 200x is like twice as good (almost) as 100x.
Don't call preflop if you are going to question putting it in on a flop like this.
first level is actually 5-10. they go 5-10, 10-20, 15-30, 20-40 in the first hour. so there is still lots of time if hero wants to wait.
(like i already said i probably get it in anyway.)
SossMan
10-13-2005, 08:36 PM
[ QUOTE ]
first level is actually 5-10. they go 5-10, 10-20, 15-30, 20-40 in the first hour. so there is still lots of time if hero wants to wait.
(like i already said i probably get it in anyway.)
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wow, 250x? that is pretty deep.
i think that I would need exact betting amounts, but it's getting closer to being able to find a fold.
Calling is more fun though.
Nordberg
10-13-2005, 09:55 PM
I gave it some thought... Legy clearly has AA-QQ and probably has a spade if he doesn't have AA. DoubleLucky is the one I'm most worried about because he could easily hold KsQs and flat call here. I was pretty sure MP had a set. I decided to go with it and put my chips in. 22 for MP and DoubleLucky called with AK no spade (I think he wants this one back)
I don't necessarily think that since I call with this hand preflop I just blindly put my chips in after I flop a flush. I still have 200 bb's if I fold and MP could play a hand like JsTs this way.
mikeymer
10-13-2005, 10:15 PM
I was at your table during this hand, hence I knew the results... I go in with this hand 100% of the time. That was a prime time situation to become a big stack early in that tournament and big stacks are especially dangerous in UB style tourneys.
Doublelucky knows this and calls because people would do this with AQ, 1 spade etc.
Gotta call, hurts to see the river quads though.
CheckRaise
10-13-2005, 10:50 PM
I'm confused did the guy with 22 make quads or did you take it down?
burningyen
10-14-2005, 01:58 AM
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DoubleLucky is the one I'm most worried about because he could easily hold KsQs and flat call here.
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I'd have a hard time putting DoubleLucky on KsQs given the preflop action and his position.
I just saw this post and I thought you might be interested in my respoonse.
First though, I hope no one will take offense if I point out that many of the people on this thread who seem so certain as to the middle position player's hand apparently know nothing about UB's $109 tournaments; they don't know the starting chips, they don't know the starting blinds, they don't know anything about this player or even the types of players this tournament tends to attract, but they somehow, none-the-less, do know he has a set. LOL. Why aren't you guys all tearing up the Extreme Tilt UB leader board?
While a set was certainly possible it would have been a hugely negative EV move to shove all-in in this spot. Risking all your chips to run people off of drawing with bad odds is the type of play you may see frequently in the $10 tourneys many here play, but it is fairly rare in this tourney. The much more probable explanation here (absent any evidence to the contrary) is a semi-bluff with a big spade.
As for Nordberg, his cold-call in the blinds of an utg raise and a m/p cold-call somehow didn't lead me to conclude he was playing 2 small spades (not that this would necessarily be a mistake in a deep-stack tournament like this one). Somehow I thought hands like AQ or AJ or a pocket pair were more likely, so with an As 2s 5s flop, I took him off of flopping the flush.
His call of the all-in worried me more than middle position's shove, but the fact was that if I was right about middle position being on a semi-bluff it was plus EV for me to call even if there was as little as a 60% chance Nordberg also was drawing with a pair and a spade. So I called and I was wrong on both counts.
I made a few notes and I'll adjust my play vs. these 2 opponents in the future ...and life (and poker) go on.
burningyen
10-17-2005, 02:14 PM
Welcome to the forum!
illegit
10-17-2005, 02:19 PM
Call and, if necessary, hit your 1-outer.
If I find a fold here then i will never ever again call a preflop raise w/ 63s.
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