Flopped Top Two

[GuyOnTilt]

Playing 4-8 at the local casino. Table is loose/passive with more than a couple calling stations and players showing down 84o and J2o from EP. Great place to play.

Folds to Reasonable UTG+1 who open-raises, 2 folds to MP cold-caller, and folds to me. I see A /forums/images/icons/club.gif J /forums/images/icons/club.gif and call. Button and blinds all fold. 3 to the flop for 6 SB's.

Flop comes: A /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif J /forums/images/icons/heart.gif T /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

EP bets out, MP raises, I call, EP calls. 3 to the turn for 12 SB's.

Turn comes: 5 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif [A /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif J /forums/images/icons/heart.gif T /forums/images/icons/spade.gif ]

EP checks, MP bets, I call, EP check-raises, MP 3-bets. I think and cold-call, EP caps and all call. 3 to the river for 18 BB's.

River comes: 2 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif [5 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif A /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif J /forums/images/icons/heart.gif T /forums/images/icons/spade.gif ]

EP bets, MP calls, I fold.

Any thoughts on this one? I felt like a freaking calling station the whole hand, which usually isn't the case when I flop top two pair, but I felt I had to have been beat on the turn. Looking back I think I should've laid down on the turn, but the thought of filling for the boat was tempting, and the thought of the Bad Beat Jackpot was what made me see the river. Is that enough for warrant calling 2 cold from a EP check-raiser knowing that it is probably going to be capped? Also, I very easily could've been drawing dead to EP's AA, or almost dead to his JJ or TT. I only had 4 outs at best and laying down on the turn is probably correct, right?

I just don't remember any situation I've ever been in before where I thought laying down top two pair on the turn was correct without a perfectly coordinated board.

Was my play correct on this one?

[sucka]

I dunno - tough play here, that's for sure.

I'd guess that EP has something like AKh and perhaps MP flopped a set of Jacks. I can't imagine what else these guys would be pumping with like this.

It's probably easy to say in hindsight that this was an easy lay down on the turn checkraise but without doing any math I don't think you play was that atrocious.

You have to think that there are only 4 hands that can beat you on the flop (AA, KQ, TT, JJ) and there's no way that the turn helped anyone - except maybe giving someone a flush draw. That being said, I'm gonna have a hard time laying this down but with all the action on the turn you have to think one of them has one of 'those' hands. THey are all certainly playable in either of those positions...

[SoCalPat]

You're willing to go along with the raises on the turn, yet you won't close the betting for one bet with no raises behind you and a rag falling on the river?

With the pot as big as it is, folding in this situation instead of calling one bet is a huge error. Sure, EP and MP could have their sets, or QK off, but if you're going to stick it out on the turn, folding the river here is bad. You could make a case for folding the turn, but implied pot odds here should be good enough to see the river, although I'm no math expert, so perhaps someone could lay it out for me.

[bernie]

ummm...

why not raise somewhere and test your hand? i wouldve reraised preflop. this is a quick way to see what they may have since their 4 bet standard may be very high. you said it was loose passive, so their moves can also indicate stronger hands than normal.

you put alot of chips in here to not call the river for a single bet. if you were going to laydown, the turn wouldve been the place as your 4-outer odds are gone with how much you ended up putting in.

though i have a feeling one of them has a set

b

[Robk]

Don't forget how you got into this mess- by coldcalling a reasonable EP's raise with AJ. Next time it comes up, think about this hand as you toss it into the muck.

[ddcpr]

I agree with bernie, although I would have raised on the flop, not preflop. This would allow me to both disguise my hand and see where I stood in relation to the other players. Otherwise, like you said, you become a calling station and have a tougher decision to make on the turn/river.

[Bob T.]

I think that you should probably three bet the flop, and after you see the reaction to that play, you might have a better read that would allow you to fold on the turn.

How much was the Jackpot, that might also figure in on whether or not you should call the turn.

Once you got to the river, I think that it is very likely that you were behind, but I can't imagine not calling that last single bet to see the showdown.

[elysium]

hi guy
looks ok to me until the river. i don't understand that fold there guy unless there is an error in this thread. you played it perfectly, so i don't know what happened on the river there. you must know that you must call.

[CrackerZack]

I would've raised the flop. Turn didn't change anything so if they're still going crazy after your 3-bet the flop you can probably get away from your hand. I would definitely have called the river also closing the action and expect to see something like AK(Kh) vs TT not sure who is holding what.

[Schmed]

Personally I would have reraised the preflop. If EP caps preflop then when that flop hit you could really start thinking about trip a's. You also might get the MP out with a KQo especially if EP caps.

I would also have 3 bet the flop. If EP comes out betting the turn and MP raises again I could lay it down without a worry. I would think you may be behind a set and a KQ.

[hutz]

With a reasonable open raise from early position and only one cold-caller, I'd likely have dumped AJs here pre-flop. If I were to play, I'd 3-bet it.

On the flop, I'd have raised and then played accordingly afterwards (depending on the following action).

If you're going to call your way to the river, then folding for one more bet while closing the action after a total blank hit the felt is a recipe for disaster!

[angry young man]

I would've 3 bet the flop without thinking twice (course I would've 3 bet pre-flop a lot of the time too). I probably would've raised on the turn but cold calling the 3 bet is tricky business. Considering what I've heard about california poker I might call it down.

This is a tough one. I would have probably called PF instead of 3-betting as suggested by other posters but would have re-raised on the flop to test the waters. Depending on the action and the odds of hitting a FH on the turn (5-1), I may stay on the turn. Although several replies advocated calling the one more bet on the river because of the size of the pot, I don't consider folding to save 1 bet as disastrous. Hero is facing a reasonable PF raiser who check-raised and capped on the turn, bet out on the river and got called by a 3-bettor. What could they possibly have? EP flopping broadway with KQs or a set of As and MP calling with JJ or TT? I think hero is a show here in a 3-horse race.

Now if it was HU on the river, then folding is not an option.

[GuyOnTilt]

EP turned over KQh for the winner, and MP mucked, but I saw he had ATh. I had thought EP for a strong player and I was really surprised to see him open-raise with KQs. Looking back I guess it wasn't that huge of a mistake given the passiveness of the table, but I still can't see myself ever doing it. It did disguise his hand very effectively though, as I didn't put him on the nuts AT ALL. I thought MP had the straight until his call on the river, and I figured EP had to have flopped a set, probably AA or JJ.

Okay... Reading my notes, I wrote down that I made 3 mistakes on this hand. 1) I should've 3-bet preflop. 2) I should've 3-bet the flop. 3) I should've folded to the 3-bet on the turn, even more so if I had done 1 and 2 and the action on the turn still went the same. If I had put EP on other hands besides AA or JJ, maybe a cold-call would be correct here, but given his play, I think my call was pretty bad.

The only thing I don't agree with you all about is my laydown on the river. With EP's check-raise and cap on the turn, there is just absolutely no way I win this hand. I realize that I'm getting 1:20, but I just don't see my top two pair winning this hand, even 5% of the time. In my mind the odds were much less than that, making the laydown correct.

Thanks for your input everybody. Oh, and I actually wasn't playing in California. I'm up in Seattle for the summer. I must say, it's much more passive up here. I'm seeing 25% of flops instead of my usual 21%.

Oh, and the Bad Beat Jackpot was somewhere between 8,000 and 9,000. Can't remember exactly..

[bernie]

[elysium]