So I have an aggression problem....

[deception5]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, MP2 folds.

River: (5.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks.

Final Pot: 5.50 BB

[xenthebrain]

Why not lead the flop?

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not lead the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Into five players in a 4sb pot leading this flop just gets you in trouble imo.

[toss]

I don't like the flop call as our hand isn't the best or won't hold up enough.

[adsman]

Would you have called a river bet?

[thesharpie]

I think it's 4 handed and the convertor messed up. Still I wouldn't lead it against 3 others without a weak tight read.

deception you're done with the hand once you have to overcall on the flop. I'd even ditch it if everyone folded to me due to reverse implied odds.

[crownjules]

I think the flop call is horrible. Drawing to 3.5 outs, and one of those straights will be the ass end, you need to be getting ~13:1 on your call. You're not even getting half that.

[SlantNGo]

Fold the flop, move onto the next hand...

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd even ditch it if everyone folded to me due to reverse implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think he's playing it to snag a 2.

[thesharpie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd even ditch it if everyone folded to me due to reverse implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think he's playing it to snag a 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was about to type some smartass answer but I think you replied to the wrong post. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[xenthebrain]

[ QUOTE ]
Still I wouldn't lead it against 3 others without a weak tight read.

[/ QUOTE ]
Probably my fault. Empire 1/2 is weak-tight and a low paired board gets lots of folds.

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's 4 handed and the convertor messed up. Still I wouldn't lead it against 3 others without a weak tight read.

deception you're done with the hand once you have to overcall on the flop. I'd even ditch it if everyone folded to me due to reverse implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

party doesnt have 2/4 short handed

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not lead the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

My thought was that if I lead, I get no information about whether my opponents are calling with overcards, made hands, or draws. If I check I may get more information (easy fold to a bet and a raise). I think thesharpie is right - once someone overcalls it is _much_ more likely that I'm up against at least one made hand so the flop shouldn't have been a check/fold.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the flop call is horrible. Drawing to 3.5 outs, and one of those straights will be the ass end, you need to be getting ~13:1 on your call. You're not even getting half that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't looking to improve, there's a reasonable chance I have the best hand on a flop like this. My plan was to call and lead a blank turn. That 8 is actually a worse card for me than I realized at the time as any overcard straight draw improved to a straight or a better pair.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
party doesnt have 2/4 short handed

[/ QUOTE ]

He means 4 handed postflop.

[MATT111]

I like it.
Do you call a river bet?

[lautzutao]

With BB leading I think he either had a 4, or a small PP(given the way he froze up on the turn with your bet).

This was a horrible bet IMO without a W/T read, something you don't include/images/graemlins/grin.gif. And with a W/T read I woulda gone for a c/r on the turn instead of the donk lead.

Grunching


I fold the flop here.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
And with a W/T read I woulda gone for a c/r on the turn instead of the donk lead.

[/ QUOTE ]

A c/r on the turn would not be a good idea in my opinion because I'd often trap the third player in the hand when he has a minimum of 6 outs against me.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you call a river bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

My plan at the time was check/fold, but I may induce a bluff from a missed draw when I check the river. Problem is most draws were helped by the 8 or A so I think check/fold is probably best.

[@bsolute_luck]

folding the flop is junk. i like how it was played, but i'd be interested to see what cards you'd check/fold on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
folding the flop is junk. i like how it was played, but i'd be interested to see what cards you'd check/fold on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

whys that ?

3.5 outs seems an easy fold to me. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[lautzutao]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And with a W/T read I woulda gone for a c/r on the turn instead of the donk lead.

[/ QUOTE ]

A c/r on the turn would not be a good idea in my opinion because I'd often trap the third player in the hand when he has a minimum of 6 outs against me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno, this donkbet without a bet on the river seems like spewage(again, minus that W/T read you coulda been right not to).

And you didn't know MP2 wasn't going to call your donkbet, so you could have had a total of possibly 12 overcards aligned against you with that bet. A check with the intention of raising would have taken care of this. If BB had bet and MP2 overcalled you could have folded and saved a bet. If BB bets and MP2 folds you C/R and bet the river.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
I dunno, this donkbet without a bet on the river seems like spewage(again, minus that W/T read you coulda been right not to).

[/ QUOTE ]

What hands that beat me would fold to a bet on the river?

[ QUOTE ]
And you didn't know MP2 wasn't going to call your donkbet, so you could have had a total of possibly 12 overcards aligned against you with that bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true. But if I am to win this pot this is my best chance to do it. Those overcards now only have a 24% chance of outdrawing me (versus a 48% on the flop). If he just has overcards this is usually when he'll fold (since the bets are doubled and his chance of improving has halved).

[ QUOTE ]
A check with the intention of raising would have taken care of this. If BB had bet and MP2 overcalled you could have folded and saved a bet. If BB bets and MP2 folds you C/R and bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

An interesting line. Problem is that the only hand that folds that I'm behind is 4x and I lose 2-3BB to any hand that is beating me. Actually if he called the check/raise, check/folding might be a better river line.

[lautzutao]

[ QUOTE ]
What hands that beat me would fold to a bet on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

With your donkbet? None. But a C/R could sell that you have a 5. Could get a small pp, a 4x, maybe even that loose 8...

[ QUOTE ]
This is true. But if I am to win this pot this is my best chance to do it. Those overcards now only have a 24% chance of outdrawing me (versus a 48% on the flop). If he just has overcards this is usually when he'll fold (since the bets are doubled and his chance of improving has halved).

[/ QUOTE ]

But when you initially responded to my C/R you were concerned about those overcards being committed to the pot if he called. You aren't with a donkbet? Or you're concerned about spending 2 bets with this hand? If that's the case, fold it.


[ QUOTE ]
An interesting line. Problem is that the only hand that folds that I'm behind is 4x and I lose 2-3BB to any hand that is beating me. Actually if he called the check/raise, check/folding might be a better river line.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was assuming that a C/R would be called...

Maybe I'm offbase with the c/r strategy because the pot's not worth risking the 2 bets, but a marginal hand like this needs a show of strength to go along with it. I'm sorry, but a donkbet doesn't "sell" this idea to me. It looks like you're trying to buy the pot.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
With your donkbet? None. But a C/R could sell that you have a 5. Could get a small pp, a 4x, maybe even that loose 8...

[/ QUOTE ]

But wouldn't they likely fold to the turn c/r rather than calling and folding to a river bet? If they call the c/r they'll call the river.

[ QUOTE ]
But when you initially responded to my C/R you were concerned about those overcards being committed to the pot if he called. You aren't with a donkbet? Or you're concerned about spending 2 bets with this hand? If that's the case, fold it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's far more likely that he'll call the c/r once he's put in money - the pot is larger and he's already invested money on that street. Against a single bet he can easily justify folding as he doesn't know what he's up against.

You are correct - I don't want to invest 2 BB with this hand. I would like to find out as cheaply as possible if I have the best hand or not.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, but a donkbet doesn't "sell" this idea to me. It looks like you're trying to buy the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the donkbet looks like either I'm not giving a free card or I have a monster and don't want to knock anyone out by c/r'ing.

Good points btw.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
deception you're done with the hand once you have to overcall on the flop. I'd even ditch it if everyone folded to me due to reverse implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this pretty much sums up how I would play it next time. If everyone checks the flop I would consider betting a turn blank (blanker than the 8).