Check Check Raised

So far villain has played reasonably tight preflop and nothing special post flop but we haven't played many hands together. The check on the river from him (after checking the turn) led me to believe my hand was good, but the check raise all in from villain caught me totally off guard. Is this a call or a fold? How is my line, standard?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed)

Hero ($75.02)
Button ($41.35)
SB ($24.65)
BB ($39.75)
UTG ($50.20)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $1</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $3</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG calls $2.

Flop: ($6.75) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $4</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $8</font>, Hero calls $4.

Turn: ($22.75) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks.

River: ($22.75) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $15</font>, UTG calls $39.20 (All-In)

[boondockst]

He's representing 9T but I can't see how he could be bluffing here...He knows you almost have to call

I don't like your line. Either fold on the flop or 3-bet if you read him as some kind of a fool. Your river bet = ? What hand did you put him on? (You're at NL 50, you had better be putting opponents on a hand)

I thought he could have AQ/KQ and I called with the intention of re-evaluating on the turn. I prefer this over 3-betting the flop.

[FlyingStart]

Could it be a ridiculously slowplayed JJ or QQ? Raising UTG with 9T and then calling a reraise doesn't seem likely, neither does checkminraising the flop (Unless this is over my head). He could have 88 I suppose, checkraising the flop to push you of what he might think is AK, and then give up the hand unless he spikes an 8 on the turn or river.

I think villain line is strange here, hard to put him on a hand, but I probably call

EDIT: On second thought I could see myself play AA this way, so maybe that's what he got

He did have JJ and I was quite amazed that he was willing to check the river to me after I had checked the turn behind.

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
He's representing 9T but I can't see how he could be bluffing here...He knows you almost have to call

I don't like your line. Either fold on the flop or 3-bet if you read him as some kind of a fool. Your river bet = ? What hand did you put him on? (You're at NL 50, you had better be putting opponents on a hand)

[/ QUOTE ]

9T? If he is he's super miracle donk. He did rasie UTG remember. I think the likely range is more AQ, KQ, and perhaps the donkish QJ. If he check raises that river with a set, I'd me mighty suprised, so I make the call. I think you're good enough here to be +EV.

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
He did have JJ and I was quite amazed that he was willing to check the river to me after I had checked the turn behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

He just played it super donkish. Sometimes you have to pay those kinds of hands off. Really poorly played by villian. That sucks.

[amoeba]

fold the river.

river check raise is almost never a bluff.

good bet on the river for value but fold to the raise.

[scdavis0]

A better way to play this hand is to bet the 3/4 pot on the turn, and fold if you get check-raised. Check behind on any non-king river.

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
fold the river.

river check raise is almost never a bluff.

good bet on the river for value but fold to the raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I generally agree with this statement too, but considering how the WHOLE hand was played, you think this is a fold?

[amoeba]

[ QUOTE ]
A better way to play this hand is to bet the 3/4 pot on the turn, and fold if you get check-raised. Check behind on any non-king river.

[/ QUOTE ]

why is this better?

[amoeba]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fold the river.

river check raise is almost never a bluff.

good bet on the river for value but fold to the raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I generally agree with this statement too, but considering how the WHOLE hand was played, you think this is a fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont know. people do illogical things. what hands can he be bluffing with here? missed KT? you already have 2 Ks.

hands like AQ likely calls your river bet.

[scdavis0]

With the check min raise check turn line on this board, I put my opponent on one of two things:

1. Some kind of top pair/second pair good kicker hand (AQ, AJ, KQ)

2. A hand that is beating me pretty badly (QQ, JJ, QJ, 22)

If he has hand #1, I'll either get value on the turn or he'll fold. I also give him a chance to fold and avoid the small consideration of a Q, J, or A sliding off.

If he has hand #2, I'll get check-raised again and I can just insta-dump.

By playing it the way he did, if villain has hand #1 he'll likely lead the river for a small bet as a blocker/value bet. I won't want to re-open the action with a raise so I'll miss value that I could have instead gotten on the turn.

If villain has hand #2, he'll typically lead for 3/4 to full pot on the river, and I might be inclined to call because there's no reason he can't have AQ here.

Now in this actual scenario the villain took a very tricky line (and he probably would indeed have been c/r on the turn had he bet thus saving money), but we are talking about standard plays.

[FreakDaddy]

Yeah, I was thinking based on how bad the hand played that his range could be KJ, AJ, AQ or even some under PP. There are a lot of hands that hero is beating and only 2 maybe 3 that he isn't.

[amoeba]

it seems the only advantage is to get the additional value between the turn 3/4 pot and the river blocking bet he would have made if you checked behind.

problem is. with hands like AJ, often he is not calling a turn 3/4 pot so I'm not sure how much additional value you are getting here.

with the info portion of betting the turn, we have to be almost certain that villain will only check raise the turn with hands that we beat. what if he checkraises all in with AQ? what if he calls your turn bet, pushes river giving you almost 4:1 on the call?

basically I'm not sure the small amount of additional value that you get out of betting the turn for 3/4 vs calling his say 1/2 blocking bet on the river had you checked behind is worth the possibility of folding the best hand or getting stacked when he has a monster.

Also your last argument about me having to call a 3/4 pot bet on the river because he could possibly do it with AQ runs counter to your additional value argument earlier.

[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: On second thought I could see myself play AA this way, so maybe that's what he got

[/ QUOTE ]

Pleeeeease tell me you're joking. This would be an absolutely atrocious line for AA.

[FlyingStart]

Haha, you're right, it is horrible. To my defense I thought UTGs raise was a full 4*BB and that he had gotten re-raised big. Here he could decide to just call to get other guy (here Hero) allin on turn or river with a little slowplay.

I'm getting curious, did Hero call? and what did other guy have?