Is not bluffing a leak?

I am TAG. I do not bluff, though i rarely semi-bluff. I am also in the red. Is this a leak?

[trumpman84]

What do you mean by not bluffing? If you aren't betting hands like AK or AQ when you miss or if you aren't making continuation bets in a heads up pot after raising, then yes I believe this is a leak. The way I play, if I raise before the flop, the pot is now my pot and I am there aggressively trying to win the pot whether I hit or miss.

[PITTM]

you arent a "tag" if you dont "bluff" to some degree...

rj

[adios]

......

[Petteri]

If you do not semi-bluff, it is a big leak. If you never try to steal pot no-one is interested in, it is a leak.

You really cannot win any higher limits if you do not semi-bluff.

I.e if you raise pre-flop, get only one caller and have position, you should bet flop and turn no matter what you have if you do not get raised. That is standard heads up play.

You should also play your draws very aggressively against 1-2 opponents.

Only betting values is called weak-tight play.

[Wally Weeks]

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Only betting values is called weak-tight play.

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He may be tight and aggressive, but he sounds like a rock post-flop. This may have less impact on online play, but not giving action when you don't have the best hand on a current street may result in less edge. Observant opponents will see that you are a rockish ABC type of player. Even bad players can make some reasonable observations. "Oh, he only bets out on the flop after a preflop raise when an Ace hits. Thus he probably has an Ace with some other big card."

But I agree with others. In order to win at poker, you need to make some uncomfortable plays at the pot occassionally. Raising on the turn as a semibluff make some people feel icky.

Am i right in these defintions:

1) Betting for value is when you bet only if you have strength and you believe you can win
2) A bluff is when you believe you wouldn't win if the other person called you, but you bet because they have a decent probability of folding
3) A semi bluff is when you believe you wouldn't win, but have a small chance of drawing into a winning hand, and the other persons have a decent probability of folding

Right now I am ONLY doing #1. Are #2 and #3 profitable? I read somewhere that bluffing is -EV.

Also, you mostly bluff/semibluff only on flop and maybe turn right?

[winky51]

Ummm, yes. Course not sure what limit you play.

Remeber bluffing at the right pot you only need to succeed once in a blue moon. if the pot is offering 6:1 on your bluff you only need to succeed 17%+ of the time to show a profit.

The more hidden advantage is that if you get caught, you get repaid later for that bet. Someone will call you down when they think "he's bluffing again" at a time they might have not if they knew you don't bluff. But since you can't read people's minds you never know when they are calling you, when you have the hand, in a situation they normally would not but are because they saw you bluff before.

I think that made sense.

[winky51]

I love that shaky boob pictures, Mmmm Mmmm

[winky51]

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Also, you mostly bluff/semibluff only on flop and maybe turn right?

[/ QUOTE ]

NOPE! Totally depends. Lets say I am the BB and I have some crap hand like 52 and all I got is a gut draw and a low board. But on the board there is 2 flush and I have 1 other player that called middle position. I bet here since its reasonable I have those crap cards. Now lets say I sense he is on a draw (flush OR Ace high trying to hit the gut wheel) well on the river you can bet again if you know this player is on the draw. If you check his ace high wins.

This happens rarely as a player just calling down with ace high will usually call the river too "just in case your bluffing" and the only player calling there is a fish. Low cards I got 2 overs and a draw, raise baby raise.

So it depends. I have bluffed into 3 player before betting 1st on the turn that checked the flop all around out of the BB. A36 rainbow and I have 54 and everyone checks the flop. Well none have the ace, and most likely no one has the 3 or 6. If the late player had a pair they would probably bet the flop so....

Also consider the players and position. 1 TAGish come in from EP and MP and 2 average players comes in from the CO, well you know the TAGish doesnt have the ace 6 or 3 or hed bet. Also if he had an ace, assume good kicker, and he would have raised preflop. If the fish had the ace they would bet. Board pairs 3s on the turn, Im betting.

You can make #2 float if you study your opponents. At low limits, wait and see if a player is capable of dropping when you push, then you can bluff him occasionally. Also, if an opponent plays predictably after a while of watching him, bluffing may be of use. Without information, it is okay to never do #2. Also, taking a #2 with two or more people in the pot can be a mess.

And, of course, if you are betting a non-winner show it off.

[SeaEagle]

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1) Betting for value is when you bet only if you have strength and you believe you can win

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Not quite. You are betting for value whenever you will win often enough to make money off of your bet. For instance if you have a flush draw (and will make your draw 1/3 of the time) you are making a value bet if 3 or more people call your bet - even though you'll lose the hand 2/3 of the time.

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Right now I am ONLY doing #1. Are #2 and #3 profitable? I read somewhere that bluffing is -EV.

Also, you mostly bluff/semibluff only on flop and maybe turn right?

[/ QUOTE ]
Look at it this way:
Suppose you're at a table where everybody bets when they have a hand and folds when they don't. The best hand always wins and nobody has an edge. Over time, the cards will even out and everybody will win the same amount.

However, if you can win just a few pots where you didn't have the best hand, you can gain an edge. In order to win pots without having the best hand, you have to bluff.

Fortunately, at SS there are a lot of people who don't bet with good hands and/or fold with bad ones, and you can probably win at 2/4 without ever bluffing just because your opponents are making so many unforced mistakes. But at higher limits, you're going to have to force your opponents to make some mistakes, and you do this through misrepresenting your hand - i.e. bluffing, slowplaying, and sandbagging.

Bluffing too much is -EV. But bluffing too little is -EV as well, and substantially so. You are getting bluffed off pots where you have the best hand. If you don't bluff at least enough to compensate for the best hands you're folding, then you'll have to make up the difference purely through opponents unforced mistakes, and that's a steep uphill battle.

[SeaEagle]

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Also, taking a #2 with two or more people in the pot can be a mess.

And, of course, if you are betting a non-winner show it off.


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IMO, both of these statements are bad advice.

I'm playing 50cent/1doll on PP.

This should be posted in micros as people will be more familiar with how those limits play. IMO though if you are in the red at those limits it is not b/c you aren't bluffing enough. Find tables with bad players. Bet and raise when you have good hands. That's pretty much all you need to do to make money there.

With two or more people in the pot, bluffing (not semibluffing) should be done with adquate knowledge. Note I am not saying don't bluff 2+ people, just do it at the right circumstances. Furthermore, I think a person who is not bluffing, but wants to start doing so, should practice more against one opponent than against 2 than against 3, etc.

Now I find it intriguing that you disagree with showing a bluff. To clarify, I don't mean do it everytime, but at least do it the first time so that you get paid off more with value bets.

If I am still wrong, let me know how.

[MyTurn2Raise]

seriously, based on this post and the other recent ones I've seen from you, I think you should drop limits and play some 6max. (Use the search and find a good method for learning 6max.)

It's still poker, but puts a huge emphasis on post flop play and reading opponents. Just playing the right hands and doing fit or fold will not work.

[SeaEagle]

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Now I find it intriguing that you disagree with showing a bluff. To clarify, I don't mean do it everytime, but at least do it the first time so that you get paid off more with value bets.


[/ QUOTE ]
Of course this is just my opinion, but I prefer my opponents to play as straightforwardly as possible. I really don't mind if they're aggressive even, as long as they're consistent. When I show my bluffs it does two things I don't like:
1) it makes people pay more attention when I'm in the hand because showing bluff cards tends to get people's attention,
2) it encourages people to play back/take shots at me because they know I might be on a bluff.

I would rather miss a few value bets because people give me credit for a hand than be placed in a few tough spots that might cost me the entire pot because people think I'm bluffing.

[alul]

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And, of course, if you are betting a non-winner show it off.

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What benefit does it give you?

[silkyslim]

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Also, taking a #2 with two or more people in the pot can be a mess.

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I know what you mean. I ran that at summer camp. Far more messy than you let on.

[SeaEagle]

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Also, taking a #2 with two or more people in the pot can be a mess.

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I know what you mean. I ran that at summer camp. Far more messy than you let on.

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vnh

I guess its more of a B&M thing. When I appear tight, even if I'm playing normally but in a sea of loose people, I cannot build the pot and don't get paid off on winning hands. Looking rockish, even if not rockish can be a hinderance.

I guess when I said that above, I owed it a lot more qualification than I gave.