Rock and a Hard Place at the 22s

[puzzlemoney]

So, I've been playing many more SnGs than I'm used to, and tonight I was in a situation I've never been in before... To my left were two big stacks, big enough that I was fearful of stealing the blinds with crap. To my right were at least two players who seemed to understand (probably better than I do) push/fold SnG strategy, and were hammering me with it.

Looking back at the history, I can see one spot where I said "why didn't I push there?!" but maybe it just looks that way in retrospect.

Should I be less hesitant to push with Queen high? Should I be more inclined to call a push with King high?

Was my final hand a reasonable call, given the possibility of tripling up, or should I have let the other guy bust? I felt like I wasn't close to being able to cash without getting really lucky at that point.

Is this a situation that I can do much about, or do I just take a stab and fire up the next table? What if this were a situation where I really wanted to move up spots, like the final table of a MTT?

Thanks for any advice... here are my final hands:


***** Hand History for Game 2867316150 *****
100/200 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 16539773) - Wed Oct 12 20:18:08 EDT 2005
Table Table 67357 (Real Money) -- Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: BigStack1 (2950)
Seat 3: DecentPlayer1 (905)
Seat 4: UnknownPlayer (750)
Seat 5: DecentPlayer2 (510)
Seat 8: Hero (685)
Seat 9: BigStack2 (2200)
BigStack2 posts small blind (50)
BigStack1 posts big blind (100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ 5d, Kh ]
DecentPlayer1 folds.
UnknownPlayer folds.
DecentPlayer2 raises (510) to 510
DecentPlayer2 is all-In.
Hero folds.
BigStack2 folds.
BigStack1 folds.
Creating Main Pot with $660 with DecentPlayer2
** Summary **
Main Pot: 660
BigStack1 balance 2850, lost 100 (folded)
DecentPlayer1 balance 905, didn't bet (folded)
UnknownPlayer balance 750, didn't bet (folded)
DecentPlayer2 balance 660, bet 510, collected 660, net +150
Hero balance 685, didn't bet (folded)
BigStack2 balance 2150, lost 50 (folded)

***** Hand History for Game 2867317926 *****
100/200 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 16539773) - Wed Oct 12 20:18:29 EDT 2005
Table Table 67357 (Real Money) -- Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: BigStack1 (2850)
Seat 3: DecentPlayer1 (905)
Seat 4: UnknownPlayer (750)
Seat 5: DecentPlayer2 (660)
Seat 8: Hero (685)
Seat 9: BigStack2 (2150)
BigStack1 posts small blind (50)
DecentPlayer1 posts big blind (100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ 9d, 3d ]
UnknownPlayer folds.
DecentPlayer2 folds.
Hero folds.
BigStack2 raises (350) to 350
BigStack1 folds.
DecentPlayer1 calls (250)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 4d, Qh, Qs ]
DecentPlayer1 checks.
BigStack2 bets (700)
DecentPlayer1 folds.
** Summary **
Main Pot: 1450
Board: [ 4d Qh Qs ]
BigStack1 balance 2800, lost 50 (folded)
DecentPlayer1 balance 555, lost 350 (folded)
UnknownPlayer balance 750, didn't bet (folded)
DecentPlayer2 balance 660, didn't bet (folded)
Hero balance 685, didn't bet (folded)
BigStack2 balance 2550, bet 1050, collected 1450, net +400

***** Hand History for Game 2867321005 *****
100/200 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 16539773) - Wed Oct 12 20:19:05 EDT 2005
Table Table 67357 (Real Money) -- Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: BigStack1 (2800)
Seat 3: DecentPlayer1 (555)
Seat 4: UnknownPlayer (750)
Seat 5: DecentPlayer2 (660)
Seat 8: Hero (685)
Seat 9: BigStack2 (2550)
DecentPlayer1 posts small blind (50)
UnknownPlayer posts big blind (100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Tc, 6s ]
DecentPlayer2 folds.
Hero folds.
BigStack2 raises (350) to 350
BigStack1 raises (1200) to 1200
DecentPlayer1 folds.
UnknownPlayer folds.
BigStack2 folds.
** Summary **
Main Pot: 1700
BigStack1 balance 3300, bet 1200, collected 1700, net +500
DecentPlayer1 balance 505, lost 50 (folded)
UnknownPlayer balance 650, lost 100 (folded)
DecentPlayer2 balance 660, didn't bet (folded)
Hero balance 685, didn't bet (folded)
BigStack2 balance 2200, lost 350 (folded)

***** Hand History for Game 2867323083 *****
100/200 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 16539773) - Wed Oct 12 20:19:28 EDT 2005
Table Table 67357 (Real Money) -- Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: BigStack1 (3300)
Seat 3: DecentPlayer1 (505)
Seat 4: UnknownPlayer (650)
Seat 5: DecentPlayer2 (660)
Seat 8: Hero (685)
Seat 9: BigStack2 (2200)
UnknownPlayer posts small blind (50)
DecentPlayer2 posts big blind (100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ 3s, Ad ]
Hero folds.
BigStack2 folds.
BigStack1 folds.
DecentPlayer1 raises (505) to 505
DecentPlayer1 is all-In.
UnknownPlayer folds.
DecentPlayer2 folds.
Creating Main Pot with $655 with DecentPlayer1
** Summary **
Main Pot: 655
BigStack1 balance 3300, didn't bet (folded)
DecentPlayer1 balance 655, bet 505, collected 655, net +150
UnknownPlayer balance 600, lost 50 (folded)
DecentPlayer2 balance 560, lost 100 (folded)
Hero balance 685, didn't bet (folded)
BigStack2 balance 2200, didn't bet (folded)

***** Hand History for Game 2867324247 *****
100/200 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 16539773) - Wed Oct 12 20:19:42 EDT 2005
Table Table 67357 (Real Money) -- Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: BigStack1 (3300)
Seat 3: DecentPlayer1 (655)
Seat 4: UnknownPlayer (600)
Seat 5: DecentPlayer2 (560)
Seat 8: Hero (685)
Seat 9: BigStack2 (2200)
DecentPlayer2 posts small blind (50)
Hero posts big blind (100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ 9d, 8h ]
BigStack2 folds.
BigStack1 folds.
DecentPlayer1 raises (655) to 655
DecentPlayer1 is all-In.
UnknownPlayer folds.
DecentPlayer2 folds.
Hero folds.
Creating Main Pot with $805 with DecentPlayer1
** Summary **
Main Pot: 805
BigStack1 balance 3300, didn't bet (folded)
DecentPlayer1 balance 805, bet 655, collected 805, net +150
UnknownPlayer balance 600, didn't bet (folded)
DecentPlayer2 balance 510, lost 50 (folded)
Hero balance 585, lost 100 (folded)
BigStack2 balance 2200, didn't bet (folded)

***** Hand History for Game 2867326694 *****
100/200 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 16539773) - Wed Oct 12 20:20:09 EDT 2005
Table Table 67357 (Real Money) -- Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: BigStack1 (3300)
Seat 3: DecentPlayer1 (805)
Seat 4: UnknownPlayer (600)
Seat 5: DecentPlayer2 (510)
Seat 8: Hero (585)
Seat 9: BigStack2 (2200)
Hero posts small blind (50)
BigStack2 posts big blind (100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ 2c, 7d ]
BigStack1 folds.
DecentPlayer1 folds.
UnknownPlayer folds.
DecentPlayer2 raises (510) to 510
DecentPlayer2 is all-In.
Hero folds.
BigStack2 folds.
Creating Main Pot with $660 with DecentPlayer2
** Summary **
Main Pot: 660
BigStack1 balance 3300, didn't bet (folded)
DecentPlayer1 balance 805, didn't bet (folded)
UnknownPlayer balance 600, didn't bet (folded)
DecentPlayer2 balance 660, bet 510, collected 660, net +150
Hero balance 535, lost 50 (folded)
BigStack2 balance 2100, lost 100 (folded)

***** Hand History for Game 2867327787 *****
150/300 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 16539773) - Wed Oct 12 20:20:22 EDT 2005
Table Table 67357 (Real Money) -- Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: BigStack1 (3300)
Seat 3: DecentPlayer1 (805)
Seat 4: UnknownPlayer (600)
Seat 5: DecentPlayer2 (660)
Seat 8: Hero (535)
Seat 9: BigStack2 (2100)
BigStack2 posts small blind (75)
BigStack1 posts big blind (150)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Th, Qc ]
DecentPlayer1 folds.
UnknownPlayer folds.
DecentPlayer2 folds.
Hero folds.
BigStack2 calls (75)
BigStack1 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 5d, 8s, 5h ]
BigStack2 checks.
BigStack1 checks.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 3s ]
BigStack2 checks.
BigStack1 checks.
** Dealing River ** : [ 8c ]
BigStack2 bets (350)
BigStack1 folds.
** Summary **
Main Pot: 650
Board: [ 5d 8s 5h 3s 8c ]
BigStack1 balance 3150, lost 150 (folded)
DecentPlayer1 balance 805, didn't bet (folded)
UnknownPlayer balance 600, didn't bet (folded)
DecentPlayer2 balance 660, didn't bet (folded)
Hero balance 535, didn't bet (folded)
BigStack2 balance 2250, bet 500, collected 650, net +150

***** Hand History for Game 2867331205 *****
150/300 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 16539773) - Wed Oct 12 20:21:02 EDT 2005
Table Table 67357 (Real Money) -- Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: BigStack1 (3150)
Seat 3: DecentPlayer1 (805)
Seat 4: UnknownPlayer (600)
Seat 5: DecentPlayer2 (660)
Seat 8: Hero (535)
Seat 9: BigStack2 (2250)
BigStack1 posts small blind (75)
DecentPlayer1 posts big blind (150)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Td, Qc ]
UnknownPlayer raises (300) to 300
DecentPlayer2 folds.
Hero folds.
BigStack2 folds.
BigStack1 folds.
DecentPlayer1 folds.
** Summary **
Main Pot: 525
BigStack1 balance 3075, lost 75 (folded)
DecentPlayer1 balance 655, lost 150 (folded)
UnknownPlayer balance 825, bet 300, collected 525, net +225
DecentPlayer2 balance 660, didn't bet (folded)
Hero balance 535, didn't bet (folded)
BigStack2 balance 2250, didn't bet (folded)

***** Hand History for Game 2867332728 *****
150/300 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 16539773) - Wed Oct 12 20:21:19 EDT 2005
Table Table 67357 (Real Money) -- Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: BigStack1 (3075)
Seat 3: DecentPlayer1 (655)
Seat 4: UnknownPlayer (825)
Seat 5: DecentPlayer2 (660)
Seat 8: Hero (535)
Seat 9: BigStack2 (2250)
DecentPlayer1 posts small blind (75)
UnknownPlayer posts big blind (150)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ 4c, 7c ]
DecentPlayer2 folds.
Hero folds.
BigStack2 folds.
BigStack1 folds.
DecentPlayer1 folds.
** Summary **
Main Pot: 225
BigStack1 balance 3075, didn't bet (folded)
DecentPlayer1 balance 580, lost 75 (folded)
UnknownPlayer balance 900, bet 150, collected 225, net +75
DecentPlayer2 balance 660, didn't bet (folded)
Hero balance 535, didn't bet (folded)
BigStack2 balance 2250, didn't bet (folded)

***** Hand History for Game 2867333512 *****
150/300 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 16539773) - Wed Oct 12 20:21:28 EDT 2005
Table Table 67357 (Real Money) -- Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: BigStack1 (3075)
Seat 3: DecentPlayer1 (580)
Seat 4: UnknownPlayer (900)
Seat 5: DecentPlayer2 (660)
Seat 8: Hero (535)
Seat 9: BigStack2 (2250)
UnknownPlayer posts small blind (75)
DecentPlayer2 posts big blind (150)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ 3d, Qs ]
Hero folds.
BigStack2 folds.
BigStack1 raises (700) to 700
DecentPlayer1 folds.
UnknownPlayer folds.
DecentPlayer2 folds.
** Summary **
Main Pot: 925
BigStack1 balance 3300, bet 700, collected 925, net +225
DecentPlayer1 balance 580, didn't bet (folded)
UnknownPlayer balance 825, lost 75 (folded)
DecentPlayer2 balance 510, lost 150 (folded)
Hero balance 535, didn't bet (folded)
BigStack2 balance 2250, didn't bet (folded)

***** Hand History for Game 2867334868 *****
150/300 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 16539773) - Wed Oct 12 20:21:43 EDT 2005
Table Table 67357 (Real Money) -- Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: BigStack1 (3300)
Seat 3: DecentPlayer1 (580)
Seat 4: UnknownPlayer (825)
Seat 5: DecentPlayer2 (510)
Seat 8: Hero (535)
Seat 9: BigStack2 (2250)
DecentPlayer2 posts small blind (75)
Hero posts big blind (150)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Jd, 2c ]
BigStack2 folds.
BigStack1 folds.
DecentPlayer1 folds.
UnknownPlayer raises (300) to 300
DecentPlayer2 raises (435) to 510
DecentPlayer2 is all-In.
Hero: sigh...
Hero raises (385) to 535
Hero is all-In.
UnknownPlayer calls (235)
Creating Main Pot with $1530 with DecentPlayer2
Creating Side Pot 1 with $50 with Hero
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Td, 7d, Ac ]
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 5s ]
** Dealing River ** : [ 4s ]
** Summary **
Main Pot: 1530 | Side Pot 1: 50 |
Board: [ Td 7d Ac 5s 4s ]
BigStack1 balance 3300, didn't bet (folded)
DecentPlayer1 balance 580, didn't bet (folded)
UnknownPlayer balance 1870, bet 535, collected 1580, net +1045 [ Ad Qc ] [ a pair of aces -- Ad,Ac,Qc,Td,7d ]
DecentPlayer2 balance 0, lost 510 [ Js Tc ] [ a pair of tens -- Ac,Js,Tc,Td,7d ]
Hero balance 0, lost 535 [ Jd 2c ] [ high card ace -- Ac,Jd,Td,7d,5s ]
BigStack2 balance 2250, didn't bet (folded)

[DDH]

My own opinion, I'd probably be about the same. The A3 and the first Q10, when it was folded to you are probably the only hands I would push. The hand you went out on, maybe. I might fold that one, and hope to able to push the small blind, or one of your hands before you're BB again. Hope you can pick up at least an Ace or King, or something that could give you a chance, (suited cards, connectors). But, I'm in the same boat, having trouble when I'm always acting before big stacks, and after people who will push.

[puzzlemoney]

[ QUOTE ]
My own opinion, I'd probably be about the same. The A3 and the first Q10, when it was folded to you are probably the only hands I would push. The hand you went out on, maybe. I might fold that one, and hope to able to push the small blind, or one of your hands before you're BB again. Hope you can pick up at least an Ace or King, or something that could give you a chance, (suited cards, connectors). But, I'm in the same boat, having trouble when I'm always acting before big stacks, and after people who will push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those were the two spots I was thinking of, too; I think the ace-high came before I fully appreciated my predicament. Looking at the hand history, it was easy from me to identify those spots, but, of course, that was in retrospect. In the moment, an ace-trey isn't that inspiring.

I guess I find it hard to believe my fold equity in a not-close-to-the-bubble situation is enough that pushing with queen high or any ace to win the blinds is better than calling where I did with any two live cards, especially when there are players out there who probably recognize my situation.

[Nicholasp27]

u had 3.5bbs in the button with everyone folding before you...you gotta push at least top 50% of hands, and definitely QT


also, i know u were scared of the big stacks, but notice they weren't calling your fellow shorties' pushes...they were being tight bigstacks, so why be scared of em?...they are obviously only calling with a hand, so 80+% of the time, they will fold to your push...

but even if they are looser, u gotta push 3.5bbs in button

take a look at eastbay's sngpt at sitngo-analyzer.com

I agree with the above posts. I push A3 and QT. Since you didn't, your bustout hand is tough. I think I fold and try to double up with 72o in the next hand.

I agree with folding the A3 from UTG, simply because if you get a call, you're toast and 5 people are behind you to act. By the time you got the Q10, I probably would have pushed 76 in that spot. This was probably your last chance to scare the blinds off a hand.

[Paul Thomson]

First off, you have to question how you got to a spot with only 6.85 x the BB. I play at pokerroom where you start with 1500 chips, so it's harder to end up in push or fold mold. I guess my point is, if you folded your way into this position then you need to think about stealing at a sooner point. Closer to around 10x the BB.

QT is obviously an auto-push, especiallly when you're on the button, but I would still push out of the CO.

A3 UTG is a fold. There are to many players behind you that if they call, you're probably dominated. If you had 9Ts UTG, then a push could be reasonable.

Final hand. I wouldn't call. In your situation, you have to be liberal about pushing, but at the same time you have to be CONSERVATIVE about calling. Sure you're getting great odds to call. But if you lose you're out. It's better to wait and then push into other people because you at least have some FE
(well maybe not since the blinds went up.) But still to call two all-ins just doesn't make sense when you have nothing.

GL. And be sure to get Eastbay's SNG Power Tools.