22s: AKo and continuation bet gets minraised....

Seat 1: GARBRAILE ($250 in chips)
Seat 2: kelberg ($1,480 in chips)
Seat 3: T_Money23 ($1,500 in chips)
Seat 4: Jedo1 ($1,850 in chips)
Seat 5: yudishtira ($1,500 in chips)
Seat 6: HERO K/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif ($1,720 in chips)
Seat 7: MaknMoney4RE ($1,500 in chips)
Seat 8: jamisonm6 ($1,360 in chips)
Seat 9: Taz111 ($2,460 in chips)
Seat 10: dvldg71 ($1,380 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
kelberg posts blind ($10), T_Money23 posts blind ($20).

PRE-FLOP
Jedo1 folds, yudishtira folds, HERO bets $90, MaknMoney4RE folds, jamisonm6 folds, Taz111 calls $90, dvldg71 folds, GARBRAILE folds, kelberg folds, T_Money23 folds.

FLOP (210) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 10/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

HERO bets $200, Taz111 bets $400, HERO ?

Against a certain sort of opponent, I run into this line a lot when I raise preflop with overs and follow up with a continuation bet. How aggressive/tricky do they have to be to merit a push here? Can I fold and still maintain a shred of self-respect? I hate minraises....

Is this an easy fold? I am so confused in these situations.... If this is an obvious fold, do you use this move against Tagg, thinking players with any two cards?

[splashpot]

I'd probably call him. See the next card.

[applejuicekid]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably call him. See the next card.

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I agree. However, I think your bet was way too big on the flop.

If he is TAG he has AQ which most people would call a preflop raise with. He isn't trying to protect his hand because he probably doesn't know what that is. He has AQ or KQ lay it down.

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
If he is TAG he has AQ which most people would call a preflop raise with. He isn't trying to protect his hand because he probably doesn't know what that is. He has AQ or KQ lay it down.

[/ QUOTE ]
Dude, even if he does have the Q, you're getting 4-1 on a call. And you have tons of possible outs.

Here's what happened in the hand:

HERO calls $200.

TURN Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 10/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

HERO checks, Taz111 bets $1,000, HERO folds.

The reason I hate just calling the minraise on the flop is it pretty much announces I'm drawing because if I have AQ there against most opponents I'm going to push expecting KQ, JQ, JK, and Ax hearts to call often enough to make it profitable. Even if I had a set or an overpair I would probably push or 3-bet big to protect against the many draws on the board. Now I'm faced with an uncallable bet on the turn which I think villain knows I can't call. It feels like I should either fold to the raise or reraise on the flop. OTOH, if he can fire two-barrelled bluffs like this I suppose he earned the pot, and I'll have to give it up.... It just feels very weak (and leads me to suspect I need the minraise in my arsenal). I'm glad to hear that some of the regulars play it the same here. Thoughts?

[ QUOTE ]
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I'd probably call him. See the next card.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. However, I think your bet was way too big on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you bet on the flop? 150? The pot is 210. Because of how draw-heavy the board is, my thinking was that I would want to "protect my AQ" if that's what I actually held and go ahead and pot it. It did put me in slightly a tight spot with the reraise, but it also made it less likely villain was doing this with nothing.

[Taraz]

I'd probably call and check-fold unimproved like you did. Your flop bet is way too big IMO, however.

[splashpot]

Another option you have is the "stop and go". Call the flop bet and push the turn. You act before he does so it'll put the decision on him. And if he does call you, you probably have lots of outs.

[pineapple888]

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If he is TAG he has AQ which most people would call a preflop raise with. He isn't trying to protect his hand because he probably doesn't know what that is. He has AQ or KQ lay it down.

[/ QUOTE ]
Dude, even if he does have the Q, you're getting 4-1 on a call. And you have tons of possible outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is very wrong because of your reverse implied odds (i.e. *you* go broke) if you hit one of your "outs". Think about it.

Aces are likely dirty outs, because villain's most likely holding here is AQ. Kings are probably good, and 4 outs to the nut straight. I would say I have 7-10 outs on this flop, or I'm about 20% to improve to a winning hand on the turn. As long as I don't go crazy if I hit an ace, I don't think reverse implied odds are that huge here. (I might go crazy if I hit an ace, though....)

[jeffraider]

I'd bet 120-140ish on this flop.

[SammyKid11]

[ QUOTE ]
Because of how draw-heavy the board is, my thinking was that I would want to "protect my AQ" if that's what I actually held and go ahead and pot it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the 22's. IMO, you're giving these people WAY too much credit. I understand your logic here, but the reason your flop bet was too big still stands. You lose too much when villain has something, you make it a more expensive pot while you're still on a relatively weak overpair+overcards (one of which is likely dirty) draw. If you bet something like, 125 - slightly more than half the pot...you don't have to take it down right there nearly as often to make it a profitable play long-term. Either way, Q's aren't folding to 125 or 200. And either way, a strong draw is going to call you (yes you'd like to make that more expensive, but the tradeoff here isn't worth it when all you're protecting is A-high).

PLUS...a bet of 125 will often be interpreted as you trying to bait with a set of queens (and will in those cases be seen as a stronger play than your pot-sized bet). But that's just an ancillary benefit. The real benefit of the smaller flop bet is that it will do almost as much to drive out weaker hands while not committing as many of your chips to this hand.

You didn't really make a "continuation" bet here. You bet as though you hit your hand, and it sounds like you ran into an opponent who had you beat. If you'd only bet 125 and gotten raised to 400, you could have much more easily laid it down right there and saved yourself almost 300 chips.

Hope this helps.