The mess of the Affiliate/Rakeback forum

[Lloyd]

Okay, I understand that this is a commercial forum and as such gets handled a little differently. But what's going on there is absolutely creating problems throughout 2+2. I highly suggest that Mat or Chuck get involved in this and bring civility and order back. Very well established posters are getting frustrated at not only the moderators but 2+2 as well. This forum is definitely causing more harm than good.

[rt1]

Please let me know what the problems are.

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
Please let me know what the programs are.

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huh?

[rt1]

i type good. edited...

[Inthacup]

If Mat or Chuck want to provide advice on how to moderate the A/R forum, I will be happy to discuss it with them in private.

Lloyd, your anecdotal MTT story was enjoyable. Thanks for sharing. However, moderating poker strategy discussion and moderating competing affiliates are 2 completely different things. If you think they are the same, or can be compared with an analogy like that, then I seriously question the validity of your complaint.

In many cases, we will be strongly criticized regardless of the decision we make. We do not allow 'PM me with your best deal' posts and we don't allow any affiliate to freely self-promote. We give affiliates that advertise more leeway than those who don't. You may disagree with this, but we have a good reason for doing so.

We will be adding many features to that forum, that aren't currently there. We will have a sticky with a list of reputable affiliates that advertise with us, the sites they provide, and the percentages that they offer. In addition, we'll have a welcome post for each of those affiliates. In this post, players can discuss good or bad dealings they have had.

The forum is not currently a finished product. However, it has only been up for less than 2 weeks, and the Party/skin crisis has delayed some of our plans.

Cup

[Lloyd]

Like I said, it's a commerical forum and you guys should have more leeway. Fine. But that doesn't mean that there aren't huge problems in that forum. It doesn't mean that established posters aren't questioning the integrity of 2+2 for allowing such a forum to exist the way it's being moderated.

Perception is key here. I'm not saying that you or the other moderators are doing anything wrong. I'm saying that it's a mess and potentially damaging to 2+2 the way things are going. And deleting any posts that aren't blatant advertisements is a very quick way to stir things up.

I suggest that there be some additional discussion between the moderators and Mat as to what should and shouldn't be allowed and then make that absolutely clear to everyone in the forum. I also think having a non-affiliate moderator who can look at questionable posts would go a long way in both restoring order and ensuring that the integrity of the moderators is upheld.

[Lloyd]

Just read some of the posts. The one that caught my eye was this one. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3637828&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)

[rt1]

[ QUOTE ]
Just read some of the posts. The one that caught my eye was this one. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3637828&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)

[/ QUOTE ]

I am assuming you read the post that got deleted... It was spam, no doubt. Plus, his methods of creating accounts violate T&C and affiliates have been told by party NOT to do this.

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just read some of the posts. The one that caught my eye was this one. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3637828&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)

[/ QUOTE ]

I am assuming you read the post that got deleted... It was spam, no doubt. Plus, his methods of creating accounts violate T&C and affiliates have been told by party NOT to do this.

[/ QUOTE ]
Please don't take this the wrong way but I don't care. Like I said, it's the perception of what's going on in this forum that's the problem. The moderators can be doing everything perfectly but if it's creating confusion, chaos, and anger among forum members then the moderation needs to be addressed. Either the way the forum is moderated needs to change or the moderators need to step up and fully explain to people what is acceptable and not (and yes I've read the FAQ but I think it leaves much to interpretation). I'm not taking sides here. In fact my rakeback deal is with one of the affiliateev members. But as a moderator I'm concerned with the direction this forum is heading and the potential damage to 2+2's reputation that might result.

[Lloyd]

Here are some quotes from that thread:

"The impartiality of the mods/2p2 is seriously starting to look bad. Delete stuff in your own paid-for forums but coming to the Internet Gambling forum and posting, then deleting it? In a forum you're not paying for? Stuff like that does not make 2p2 look good at all."

"It's like "Welcome to our fast food forums" but any post by Wendy's, Burger King, Taco Bell or KFC is deleted - but any post prasing McDonalds stays up and gets repeatedly praised. It's just pure BS plain and simple."

"Obviously the Affiliate/RB forum sucks and is not in the best interest of 2+2ers. Its a sponsored forum, you're not going to get the best information and people are going to abuse their powers."

"When one representative (Inthacup) makes a post saying that the prospect of rakeback isn't looking good and another representative (stoxtrader) has information going against that, it's in everyone's best interest that we hear this information so that an informed conclusion on what is really going on can be reached."

"Unfortunately, 2p2 is not here for us. It is here to make the publishers money. Censoring information that isn't making them money and isn't good for the people giving them money, no matter how useful, will obviously happen without question.

"I just feel bad for all the people that think 2p2 cares about the information on this board instead of the money the ads bring in. I'm not complaining, obviously they're not going to give all this away for free, but the shadowy censorship is pretty annoying."

"I didn't know Stox offered rakeback until this thread.

I DID KNOW that most of the "moderating" that occurs on this site is beyond hypocritical."

"Given the nature of the forum it was posted in and the status of the moderators of that forum the motives behind deleting it are highly questionable. A significantly better alternative would have been a reply stating what what is known and a request for elaboration. We are all just hungry for as much information as possible. A lot of us are smart enough to sort it out for ourselves."

" As I see it. If you are not a member of whatever group of affiliates paid 2+2 the rent on the A/F forum your post is gone."

"How is it of little use to the player when previously in the thread he replied to, someone makes total opposite claims?

Everyone knows why it was deleted. It was deleted because money bought you guys the opportunity to do so. "

"This is your OPINION.
That does not make it FACT.

If Stox has a DIFFERENT opinion than you then doesn't make it incorrect.


(note - I did not see the original post that was banned....but my impression is that stox was also expressing a different opinion on this matter AND also mentioned some details WHY he thought this). "

"So instead of his differing view of what is happening, the only official view (in the Democratic Republic of China sense of the word) allowed on this forum is that no rakeback is available?

Why not delete the original post for the exact same reason you deleted stoxtraders? You know exactly why.

Anyway, it was inevitable that sponsor-BS would spread its taint away from the sponsored forums. "

"You guys running that affiliate forum could be good, bad, or indifferent. I have no way of knowing, really; and yet I (and seemingly many others) have a somewhat negative attitude toward you just from your high-handed "controlling"."

"Our society may not be quite as free as we might like, but it's still free enough that people will hate anybody who tries censorship, whether they have any real interest in the matter being censored or not."

"All these sponsored forums probably sounded like a good idea going in, but it's now obvious they are worthless to the users. If 2+2 needs more revenue to run the board, I'd much rather just pay an annual fee for access and be done with all the self-serving "moderating." "

Disclaimer: Some of these are from the same people but I think the point is clear. There are many people upset at how things are going and it's not good for 2+2.

[Mat Sklansky]

I banned affiliate speak initially because I found it impossible to get under control. These commercial forums are an experiment that will either work for everyone, or not. For now, the responsibilities of moderation and policy making are in the hands of those who purchased these forums. The sponsored forums seem to be worthwhile enough to some users; those who feel otherwise don't have to visit them. I think it's far too soon to make an overall judgment