Perhaps a dumb theory question....

[kurto]

When someone raises PF and someone else (particularly if we're talking 2 people with a full buyin) reraises them, this goes back and forth until they're both all in... or you have 3 or more people doing such...

Are they all idiots?

The reason I ask, and let me know if I'm way off; I know in holdem, pocket Aces have such an advantage over any hand, that you're always happy and smart to get it all in preflop.

But my understanding is that the edge in Omaha (be it PLO or PLO8) is so much smaller, that it really is more a postflop game.

If I raise with a legitimate raising hand, and someone else also has a decent raising hand... is there any hand SO strong that it makes sense they everyone should rush to get it all in preflop? (in other words, if someone raises who I know only raises with legitimate 'good' hands, is there anything that I can get that I would rathar push and get it all in preflop regardless of what he may have?)

I've been thinking that these people getting in their stacks preflop are just gamblers (as opposed to smart poker players) But perhaps I'm just being weak tight or don't understand the game enough or the value of my hands?

Why is this stupid? If I have a hand that I am confident is a pre-flop favorite, I want as much money in the pot as possible. In the long run, I will make money.

[Wintermute]

Well, with AA23ds, or AA24ds, I'm happy to get it all in preflop every time, regardless of # of opponents. But I see what you're saying. In a three-way PF all-in situation, usually at least one person is being a dumbass.

[emptyshell]

Uhh, I'm not sure that's true. There seems to be a lot about preflop odds in O8 that I don't understand and multi-way pots is one of them. Check this out:

As Ad 3d 2h 0.308
2s Ac 3c Ah 0.330
Ks Qs Kd Qd 0.362

[hachkc]

Go watch the NL08 games at P*. I'm always amazed at the number of folks that'll go All-In preflop. I called one of these All-ins once with AA3Xss and won like $100 at the NL08 $1/$2 table.

[DyessMan89]

I try to avoid it as much as I can. Very few hands if any are huge advantages over the other ... and even if I have a great hand, I dont feel like gambling my entire buy-in on a 55/45 at best. I especially dont want to since most PL and NL08 players are so bad, I can wait for a bigger advantage.

[emptyshell]

I just try to avoid buying in for my entire bankroll and go ahead and take the 55/45 edges as well as the 80/20 ones.

[Mendacious]

Good point. I think this is more psychological than anything else. You are right, no hand is a prohibitive favorite pre-flop against ALL hands like AA is in hold-em, but then again, even in cash games, people go all-in in holdem with hands that are not spectacular favorites at all. If you raise all-in with QQ, JJ, or AK, and get a caller, you are probably in a coin toss situation, but nevertheless people do it all the time.

Just because Omaha/8 is a flop game, doesn't mean people like to grind it out all the time. I think re-raising to the stacks pre-flop is more about making a statement and gambling than anything else. Moreover, once the raising starts, both hands probably have odds to call, so this scenario is really has more to do with manipulating an opponent into mistakes, and pushing people out of their comfort level. I can tell you that when a game gets a little wild like that, it can have a profound effect on other players.

[xorbie]

A lot of it for me is that odds are so complicated to calculate, and alot of players so donkish that I just don't want to have my A/images/graemlins/club.gif5/images/graemlins/club.gifA/images/graemlins/heart.gif2/images/graemlins/heart.gif running into a 8/images/graemlins/heart.gifJ/images/graemlins/heart.gifJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif board and being like wtf mate with like 20% of my stack already in the middle.

[Cooker]

[ QUOTE ]
Uhh, I'm not sure that's true. There seems to be a lot about preflop odds in O8 that I don't understand and multi-way pots is one of them. Check this out:

As Ad 3d 2h 0.308
2s Ac 3c Ah 0.330
Ks Qs Kd Qd 0.362

[/ QUOTE ]

How is this any differrent from worrying about the few holdem situations where AA isn't a favorite preflop? The reason this works out so badly is that with the exceptions of the flushes all he AA23 hands can do is split the pot with the other AA23 while when KKQQ gets lucky it gets the whole pot or quarters the AA23s. If you give 2 people AA in holdem and put a slew of PPs out against them, then the Aces will eventually become a dog since they are playing to split the profits while the others are playing to win the whole pot.

To illustrate a point:

Holdem Hi: 850668 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Ah 14575 1.71 487897 57.35 348196 40.93 0.221
As Ad 14575 1.71 487897 57.35 348196 40.93 0.221
8s 8h 209854 24.67 638156 75.02 2658 0.31 0.247
3c 3d 144786 17.02 703224 82.67 2658 0.31 0.171
2s 2h 118682 13.95 729328 85.74 2658 0.31 0.140

Now you are going to tell me you don't want to get all-in with Aces preflop in holdem. Its the ties that are killing the Aces here, and the same thing is happening in your example. Do something more reasonable like not making the side cards identical and you get

Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As Ad 3d 2h 58845 68453 318978 112569 236787 19323 1940 0.401
4s Ac 5c Ah 46206 109697 277734 112569 41254 214581 1940 0.255
Ks Qs Kd Qd 135177 209281 290719 0 0 0 0 0.344

Which shows the better Aces hand would be getting much the best of it. However, while seeing AA45 taking the worst of it in a three way pot is a bit of a wakeup call, this is still a very convtrived example when that hand is extremely dominated by the other AA hand.

[Cooker]

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of it for me is that odds are so complicated to calculate, and alot of players so donkish that I just don't want to have my A/images/graemlins/club.gif5/images/graemlins/club.gifA/images/graemlins/heart.gif2/images/graemlins/heart.gif running into a 8/images/graemlins/heart.gifJ/images/graemlins/heart.gifJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif board and being like wtf mate with like 20% of my stack already in the middle.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't mind this one bit. Many times you will move in on the flop and be called by a worse flush draw with a worse backkdoor low and rarely is someone seeing a flop in a raised pot with 88 or J8 (and if they are then I know my money will be coming back soon enough), so you don't have to worry too much about being totally killed. There are 2 fairly successful ways to play PLO8 at the low limits, you can nut peddle and win small pots and hit the eventual score when a total sucker pays you off or you can try to push edges and play a higher variance style (like Wintermute, Ribbo and others here try to play). I think the latter style will be most profitable (especially at higher limits where nut peddlers don't get paid off as much). I would probably push all in on the given flop 100% of the time if I could with my AA25, if someone moves in ahead of me, then I have to worry a bit.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
If you give 2 people AA in holdem and put a slew of PPs out against them, then the Aces will eventually become a dog since they are playing to split the profits while the others are playing to win the whole pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think its comparable.. because with 2 players have aces preflop, there's going to be so much PF action, that 99% of the time its going to be aces heads up against each other.

I would argue that you don't see 4 people getting it all in PF in No Limit Texas Holdem that often...

[Drizztdj]

You mean that's not fun watching all-ins for $1.50 in blinds?

When they flip over A2s or AA and two non-wheel cards, it makes my head hurt and makes me want to take a shot at this once in a while with a premium hand.

[Cooker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you give 2 people AA in holdem and put a slew of PPs out against them, then the Aces will eventually become a dog since they are playing to split the profits while the others are playing to win the whole pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think its comparable.. because with 2 players have aces preflop, there's going to be so much PF action, that 99% of the time its going to be aces heads up against each other.

I would argue that you don't see 4 people getting it all in PF in No Limit Texas Holdem that often...

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is exactly the same, the reason the aces are doing poorly is not because they have no chance to improve or aren't winning very often, it is because they have to split most of the time when they win. Suppose one of the aces hands folds preflop,

pokenum -mc 500000 -o8 as ad 2d 3h - kd qd ks qs / ac ah 2s 3c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As Ad 2d 3h 259137 259137 240863 0 265424 0 0 0.606
Ks Qs Kd Qd 153108 240863 259137 0 0 0 0 0.394

Now the remaining AA23 is a nice favorite (I included the other AA23 as dead cards for this). It is the fact that the hands are exactly the same that is killing their chances and this will be an extremely odd occurence.

[Wintermute]

[ QUOTE ]
Uhh, I'm not sure that's true. There seems to be a lot about preflop odds in O8 that I don't understand and multi-way pots is one of them. Check this out:

As Ad 3d 2h 0.308
2s Ac 3c Ah 0.330
Ks Qs Kd Qd 0.362

[/ QUOTE ]
Uh, what's "not true"? I merely offered opinions in my post, no attempt at a factual claim.

If anything, I think your post shows why shoving a/ AA23 is always a good idea... even with the absolute *worst* stacking of the deck against you, you have near-correct equity.

Not to mention, in my post I specified AA23 double-suited, where in your post, you made them single-suited. Of course, you had to in order to get the KKQQ enough equity to make your point. When you take away its flush draws:

Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As 2s Ad 3d 18959 58720 258746 182534 0 0 265297 0.332
Ac 3c Ah 2h 34302 88073 229393 182534 0 0 265297 0.377
Ks Qs Kd Qd 120959 170673 329327 0 0 0 0 0.292



Get back in your hole, son.

[DyessMan89]

[ QUOTE ]
Uhh, I'm not sure that's true. There seems to be a lot about preflop odds in O8 that I don't understand and multi-way pots is one of them. Check this out:

As Ad 3d 2h 0.308
2s Ac 3c Ah 0.330
Ks Qs Kd Qd 0.362

[/ QUOTE ]

No content. But heres another 3 way likley example ...

pokenum -mc 500000 -o8 ac 2d 4d 3d - kd 5d kh 6h - 2s as 6c jd
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ac 4d 3d 2d 46281 69509 426205 4286 128110 8567 122165 0.275
Kd 5d Kh 6h 160862 294595 204567 838 6466 136237 0 0.460
As 2s 6c Jd 61119 130950 364223 4827 10742 104110 122165 0.265