QQ on a great/miserable flop [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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DCWildcat

10-12-2005, 01:56 PM

MP is 64/13/3, UTG is 74/3/2.3

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls, SB completes, Hero raises, UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG raises, MP calls, Button calls, SB folds, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls, MP caps, Button calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

As nasty as top set can get. I didn't catch MP's call/cap at the time, but that's not so unusual at shorthanded tables with big multiway pots.

Turn: (13 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, MP raises, Button calls, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls, MP caps, Button calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

I was relieved when the superblank fell, until MP raised. Still, he's too aggressive. Am I against a lower set/bad two pair/poorly played draw/random bullshit factor vs an ggressive opponent often enough to 3-bet, or should I start calling down?

River: (29 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP bets, Button folds, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Another blank, but MP's previous aggro has me convinced to call down. Maybe an argument could be made that I missed a bet here, I don't know.

Final Pot: 32 BB

benkath1

10-12-2005, 01:58 PM

I believe I call down from teh first turn raise.

shadow29

10-12-2005, 02:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I believe I call down from teh first turn raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

correct.

xenthebrain

10-12-2005, 02:05 PM

After I get raised on the turn I call down (unless I improve to Queens full on the river)

Until then you really have to keep it agressive.
Single /images/graemlins/spade.gif out there shall not come cheap and you even have the best hand the majority of the time.

And even if you are behind, you have good chances to improve with 7 outs on the flop and 10 on the turn.

POKhER

10-12-2005, 02:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I believe I call down from teh first turn raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep! No value in raising and its goign to get capped and you look like your behind.

Although Mp is VERY AGGRESSIVE i still call down.

USDaniels

10-12-2005, 02:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I believe I call down from teh first turn raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I do too. I'd miss all kinds of bets here, the board is too scaaaaaary. Boo!

deception5

10-12-2005, 02:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I believe I call down from teh first turn raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto. That flop cap usually means one of 2 things. Super draw or super made hand. Super draw did not improve on the turn.

Stealthy

10-12-2005, 03:03 PM

Sure we could be agianst a made flush and/or straight here but going for a turn cap is not terrible by any means. We have 2 lots of dead money in the pot at least and apart from the few times our hand is actually good we will improve to a boat on the river a little under 25% of the time. That alone gives us almost the right odds to cap the turn. We are only dead to a made straight flush after all.

Calling down from the turn raise is not a bad line but there is no reason to fear the extra 8 BB going in either being that 4 of them are from certain dead money.

Shillx

10-12-2005, 03:10 PM

Perfect

2+2 Junkie

10-12-2005, 03:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Perfect

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think after the turn raise that capping is spewing?

I am not very good at this game so please explain how this is +EV.

imported_The Vibesman

10-12-2005, 03:23 PM

MP calls two cold on the flop trying to get button and SB to stay in and keep you and UTG at each other, then when he sees that UTG won't cap the flop he does it himself, then he wakes up on the turn again whent UTG doesn't raise. He's trying to get as much cash in here as possible. On the flop it could just be the As, but the turn raise would seem to indicate he is not on a draw. I just call down after that. The 3bet seems a bit much.

Stealthy

10-12-2005, 03:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Perfect

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think after the turn raise that capping is spewing?

I am not very good at this game so please explain how this is +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. We may still have thew best hand. Not likely but not to be dismissed.

2. We have around a 23% shot at beating any non-straight flush on the river. With 3 players in with us we are putting 25% of the money in and either us or the flush is collecting it all. We want all that extra dead money in now while we can. The percentages make it close but does not make capping spewing.

3. Making the pot ginourmous now makes it easier to get extra money in (looser calls) if the board pairs on the river.

lautzutao

10-12-2005, 03:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I believe I call down from teh first turn raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll pile on to the ever-increasing crescendo of turn-call downs/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Shillx

10-12-2005, 04:32 PM

Let's just say that the aggressive dude has a flush here. How much of a mistake are we making by going to war?

EV = .227*16BB - 4BB = - .37BB

Now lets just say that we have the best hand and currently have 66% equity.

EV = .66*16BB - 4BB = + 6.56 BB

Do you see why going crazy here isn't such a bad thing. If we are behind we are making a small mistake. If we are ahead it is a winfall for us.

Brad

So if we are ahead even 10% of the time, we make like .35 BB by going to war.