Weak tight with the ever-degrading second nuts?

[ElSapo]

Four handed 3/6 at Absolute. None of the players are horrible, but they’re not tricky either. They bet or check-raise the flop with a pair, and fold if they miss. Raises have tended to result in heads-up or three-way action, but it’s pretty predictable.

Basically, I think these three guys are probably slight winning players at full-ring games, but break-even to slight losers at shorthanded. The BB is the best player, fairly tight and aggressive and probably the exception to the above description. The Button is the worst and loosest.

First to act, I raise 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Everyone calls, which is surprising.

Flop is 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif

A relatively unknown SB bets, BB raises and I three bet. The bad button calls, as do the blinds.

Turn is the 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB bets, BB raises and I call. Button calls, SB calls.

River is the 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif. SB bets, BB calls and I overcall…

Questions: Should I have put another bet in there somewhere? If the button raises, can I fold? I think folding if it comes back two more is easy... What happens if the BB raises the river?

[wackjob]

I 3-bet the turn.

[Surfbullet]

I'd 3bet the turn, as 8s are more likely than a boat, because you would have gotten capped on the flop - they put you on an overpair anyway.

I'd overcall the river as you did, i don't think there's enough value in a raise there.

Surf

[jba]

I fold preflop - 64s is a bit lagtastic for my style, but I get it.

I also like 3-betting the turn. SB really looks like trips and I think BB could very possibly be just trying to shake you off.

[wackjob]

BTW, you don't have the 2nd nuts either.

[ElSapo]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, you don't have the 2nd nuts either.

[/ QUOTE ]

At risk of sounding like an idiot, the title refers to flopping the second nuts and "ever-degrading" means they got worse on each street.

I'm relatively certain I flopped the second nuts.

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, you don't have the 2nd nuts either.

[/ QUOTE ]

I took it that he flopped the second nuts, and it all went downhill from there.

[ElSapo]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold preflop - 64s is a bit lagtastic for my style, but I get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wondered what sort of comments this would get. Curious if anyone else has comments, this is pretty standard for me if I feel like I have some control post-flop (and by control, I mean if I think a flop bet will win a reasonable amount of time).

[ElSapo]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd 3bet the turn, as 8s are more likely than a boat, because you would have gotten capped on the flop - they put you on an overpair anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think you (and others) are right - I think I need to three-bet the turn.

[wackjob]

I see.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I fold preflop - 64s is a bit lagtastic for my style, but I get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wondered what sort of comments this would get. Curious if anyone else has comments, this is pretty standard for me if I feel like I have some control post-flop (and by control, I mean if I think a flop bet will win a reasonable amount of time).

[/ QUOTE ]

hey ElSapo,

I think 64s is def too weak, unless these guys really folded everything short of top / 2nd pair. I just don't think we can have enough control over our opponents to make up for the fact that most of the time we will flop 6-hi no draw, often OOP to a button CC.

Surf

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I fold preflop - 64s is a bit lagtastic for my style, but I get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wondered what sort of comments this would get. Curious if anyone else has comments, this is pretty standard for me if I feel like I have some control post-flop (and by control, I mean if I think a flop bet will win a reasonable amount of time).

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to pull stuff like this -- maybe not this bad but 86s/65s territory -- and I just feel like people start playing back at me a ton when I am doing this, and it causes me to feel like I'm losing control of the session. I think many things need to go perfectly for this to be EV+: impeccable table image, tight button, very weak-tight blinds that will very often call preflop and fold to one bet on the flop. too much of a parlay IMO.

[Wynton]

I agree with the others about folding pf, and about raising the turn.

[ElSapo]

[ QUOTE ]
I used to pull stuff like this -- maybe not this bad but 86s/65s territory -- and I just feel like people start playing back at me a ton when I am doing this, and it causes me to feel like I'm losing control of the session. I think many things need to go perfectly for this to be EV+: impeccable table image, tight button, very weak-tight blinds that will very often call preflop and fold to one bet on the flop. too much of a parlay IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh. This is sort of disturbing because I raise a ton of hands in games 4-handed and less, and keep going until I either find people playing back or calling down.

A lot of my SH play is against people weak-tight that seem to be using full-game requirements. But maybe I need to tone it down a little or a lot...

[wonkadaddy]

dude, u already know 64s utg 4 handed is light.

sure, sometimes there are situations where it's +EV to raise any 2. depends a lot on how the last few hands have played out in addition to the obvious things already mentioned. but ur 64s hand obviously has little hand strength value shorthanded.

and yeah, not raising the turn is a sin. especially when ur pushing a table around and encouraging folks to go too far w/their good/not great hands.