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View Full Version : $27 JJ hand again

TruFloridaGator
10-12-2005, 11:58 AM
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t1500)
CO (t1260)
Button (t1550)
SB (t1870)
BB (t1360)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1460)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to t80</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t80, CO calls t80, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls t60.

Flop: (t330) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets t60</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to t180</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero?</font>
TruFloridaGator
10-12-2005, 12:24 PM
bump?
otctrader
10-12-2005, 12:24 PM
I'm not too fond of this spot since the UTG donkbettor is still live (probably a draw, but at these limits it's hard to tell), and it's hard to put MP on a hand - I would properly raise almost anything there against the donkbet including overs.

I think you're in a raise/fold spot where I'd lean toward folding, then again I play weak/tight early.
TruFloridaGator
10-12-2005, 12:25 PM
Yeah, Made the wrong decision yesterday in a similar situation by folding &amp; then the wrong decision by raising this time ... bleh
otctrader
10-12-2005, 12:29 PM
Well that's the whole point, with that action in front of you it's a high variance situation; sure you have overpair value, but you're not opening up the flop action and still have guys to act behind you.

I don't think there's a right or wrong answer, I just personally rather push a better edge later barring reads on the two that acted in front of you.

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, Made the wrong decision yesterday in a similar situation by folding &amp; then the wrong decision by raising this time ... bleh

[/ QUOTE ]
The Yugoslavian
10-12-2005, 12:44 PM
I'd probably fold.

Btw, do you know who deut23 is? Run into him in the turbos at all?

Yugoslav
TruFloridaGator
10-12-2005, 12:46 PM
Sounds familiar...No notes on him or anything, so probably just once or twice. Play the 27s &amp; 60s..
Who is it? I'm going to be scared if I see him. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
The Yugoslavian
10-12-2005, 12:49 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Sounds familiar...No notes on him or anything, so probably just once or twice. Play the 27s &amp; 60s..
Who is it? I'm going to be scared if I see him. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that's what I'd like to know. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Meh, nothing to be scared of really, I'm just curious who it is.

Yugoslav
10-12-2005, 01:12 PM
Fold or Push.

No reads.

It just feels like a push here. I dont know why. I just cannot put anyone else on a higher PP with the way it has played out so far. Definately a fold/push situation, I think I am going to push this hand and cross my fingers LOL! This is indeed a high variance situation tho.
Fletch46
10-12-2005, 01:30 PM
Why don't you put MP1 on a big PP? He raised 4xBB PF. Couldn't he be trapping with the small bet on the flop?
10-12-2005, 01:33 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Why don't you put MP1 on a big PP? He raised 4xBB PF. Couldn't he be trapping with the small bet on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats true.

Reading over the hand again I think I may have to change my opinion here.

Im now leaning towards fold. You have an overpair but with the MP1's preflop raise, and then reraise on the flop Fletch is correct... higher PP is definately possible. My bad. LOL! I think that I was focusing on another hand while originally replying to this topic... *smacks forehead*.
TruFloridaGator
10-12-2005, 01:35 PM
4x can mean any number of hands @ the 27s, especially in L1.
TruFloridaGator
10-12-2005, 01:37 PM
Ok, well certainly you have to factor that in which is what I did yesterday in a similar situation. Gave too much credit both times, no big pair.

BB flopped 2 w/ 94o in this hand.
pineapple888
10-12-2005, 02:19 PM
That's one of the reasons you should raise good pairs preflop: drive out random flops where you can go broke against junk. (See "reverse implied odds" if you want the theory.)

The other reason is to clarify your hand, so it's much easier to make this sort of decision on the flop.

The other reason is to drive out as many overcards as possible with a strong but vulnerable hand.

The other reason is to create a strong table image.

The other reason is that shallow stacks create low set value.

I guess that's enough. Lecture over. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
Fletch46
10-13-2005, 01:13 AM
Actually I got this a bit wrong. MP1 did raise PF but it was the BB who bet small on the flop (with his 2 pr as it turns out). MP1 raised which I think supports him having a big PP so I wouldn't have felt good about my JJ's.
Did MP1 show his hand?
Scuba Chuck
10-13-2005, 03:57 AM
[ QUOTE ]


Flop: (t330) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on guys. The flop is t330. BB makes a weak bet. MP1 makes, IMO, an even weaker bet. If you have a higher pair here, are you raising to 1/2 pot, giving a flush draw odds to call? I know we shouldn't think that others play as we do, but I don't think our read should instantly be an overpair at this stage.

This is truly a strange hand. I'm not sure how I'd play. The main reason I don't like pushing here is because I know my skill is way over the field.

Why not raise?
10-13-2005, 04:14 AM
Why would you say an overpair? That is the last thing I'm thinking about.
Scuba Chuck
10-13-2005, 04:16 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Why would you say an overpair? That is the last thing I'm thinking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, let's take a step backwards. Villain makes a 4xBB raise. What hand range do you put him on?
Cactus Jack
10-13-2005, 07:45 AM
Am I the only one who would have made it T240 to go PF? That would let me know where the PF raiser was, I think. If he reraises, I'm done--no harm, no foul. This early, this raise isn't enough to keep the blinds from coming in at a discount, and JJ just doesn't play well at all multiplayer. Plus, by reraising, I probably will have position for the rest of the hand.

However, as it stands now, I'm out. Let them play it. It's too early for this kind of gambling. This kind of hand often sends people home.

CJ
Scuba Chuck
10-15-2005, 10:14 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one who would have made it T240 to go PF? That would let me know where the PF raiser was, I think. If he reraises, I'm done--no harm, no foul. This early, this raise isn't enough to keep the blinds from coming in at a discount, and JJ just doesn't play well at all multiplayer. Plus, by reraising, I probably will have position for the rest of the hand.

However, as it stands now, I'm out. Let them play it. It's too early for this kind of gambling. This kind of hand often sends people home.

CJ

[/ QUOTE ]

There's still one flaw in this strategy. Many players play AK like the nuts, and can move in with it. I still like the preflop call, and having more callers in the hand, make it more difficult for AK to move forward if he whiffs.

Anyhow, this is certainly an ok fold in my book. I just have a very hard time with that bet. That being said, I can't tell you how often I played a hand aggressively with JJ and was called to the river (with no overcards) by KK.

I'm still not certain what is the best play.